06.09.2023 | Webcasts & Podcasts

The Marcus Hour | Ep. 5 | 6.9.23 | What Every Manager Should Know…Not To Be Engineers But To Learn Tell-Tale Signs Such As Spalling with Guest Speaker Mitch Frumkin of Kipcon, Inc. Engineering Consultants

The Marcus Hour | Ep. 5 | 6.9.23 |  What Every Manager Should Know…Not To Be Engineers But To Learn Tell-Tale Signs Such As Spalling with Guest Speaker Mitch Frumkin of Kipcon, Inc. Engineering Consultants


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On June 20, fourth, 2021. So the billing inspection.

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Yeah, the public policy is posted as updated in February, which is also heading up. And another task force.

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I’m on for any changes we wanna make to the public policy and also the newly release maintenance Manual of 66 pages has also been posted Post Seminar.

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You’d be getting a copy of the full Powerpoint and the Maintenance manual and maintenance best practices, and the public policy, as well as the any questions in the Chat when I a long time ago, when I got involved in condominium management as good

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condiminium law. They kind of minimize manager for developers said to me, he’s very laid back and looked at me.

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He said. Kind of medium management is really easy. When he paused, and he said, until the first resident moves in one of the things that I’d like people to do, stay down a pam, take out a pen and write the C. A. I. N.

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E.org, and I think everybody on this call, if you’re not members of the community associations that’s the page for the New England chapter located in a Wells lake.

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But there’s just a plethora of information programs and the like that.

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The yeah, so we sort of have a unique format.

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I’m gonna do about 10 min when go to the next slide, please, Mitch.

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Next slide. Okay, there we go. I’m gonna do 10 min and sort of backwards.

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This is legal issues after Mitch or an engineer does a structural review or issues?

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If, you bury your heads in the sand, and don’t do review.

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So the first one I’m gonna rattle them off.

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There’s liability for not doing any kind of studies on buildings that are, for example, over 30 years.

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And some would say less. If there are any issues. The resulting bottle, injury, death, property, damage, the there’s potential liability for the manager and the and the boards.

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There are policy explicions and in the insurance policy policy collapse, even though it was paid by great American.

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The surveys collapsed, especially if known, which apparently was in 2,018, is typically not a covered loss.

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So inurance does not cover everything. Talk to your insurance.

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The specialists about that, an issue that I’ve talked about a few webinars is the amount.

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If your policy is for 80 million dollars. Has anybody verified that the building can be reconstructed for 80 million dollars?

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Or is that too low? We suspect the amounts in Server side at 37 million were probably very much under under value, especially since the property sold for 12020,000,000.

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But this is insurance costs ordinance of law.

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We’ve talked about that and of the seminars.

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You have to meet new code. So if you build on, I used to think, well, Boston is all 19 hundreds or earlier, and everything else is new.

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But the buildings in the suburbs that I used to think of as new were built in 1980.

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So 19 nineties and are now certainly old enough.

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That engineer, that engineer studies and research studies should be done on insurance.

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I’ve also directors and offices and commercial general liability insurance.

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What’s enough? The condominium next door to serve side based on a theory that vibrations from construction at their condiment am.

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Could have been a possible cause, or added to the causes for the clients paid 20, or they were insurer, paid 29 million dollars in settlement of the 1.2 billion.

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So Ash your insurance agent is 10 million, 25 million, 50 million, or 100 million laid umbrellas, adequate.

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But I’m positive that 1 million 2 million 5 million is probably not these days.

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Try this little mind game if you don’t decide to increase your liability limits.

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Thank you about what it would look like if you are at a meeting of a hundred owners who have just lost their home, who’ve been relocated, and your news to them is that especially if it was bodily injury or death that they could be 10 or 20 million

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dollars worth of claims, and you’ll only have a million dollars of liability insurance.

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How do you tell owners the theory responsible for the other 19 million M in Massachusetts, anyway, there’s no limit to how much the owners are responsible for that’s what I’ve never mentioned before.

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But it came to mind last couple of weeks where we set up developers with the Llc.

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As the first board, but that is almost always natural. Persons, individuals as board members, consider a many documents.

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For met entities, such as now, I’ll say, as board member, not just individuals who attempt the lesson possible amounts of liability.

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Number 8. Inspector, suggested by Mitch and your own engineer to attempt to avoid a disaster and see what issues exist.

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Finally read the Cai Research Foundation, 2023. Best practice on maintenance which the Mitch has attached, and also will be sent to our registrants after next week after the program, next slide, please.

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We are fortunate in Massachusetts to have at least one bank that will do 2530 allowance to pay for major repairs. But let’s say, Mitch, or another engineer comes up and says there’s 20 million or 30 million dollars worth of work.

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Dan picker and bank is one bank who can make a little less painful to pay for those.

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Repairs. A lot of them to be done quickly, and paid it over a long period of time.

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In addition, we have several banks Brooklyn Bank, the Video Bank, Rockman Trust and the Showbank.

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But if there is a shortfall and there’s an engineering study saying you need money.

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There are lending solutions that are available. With that I know turned over to me.

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Hey, I never had to unmute myself. Thank you very much for the introduction.

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Just so. Everybody knows I have. I was given 48 min to give my presenceation to Ana, but 85 slides, so I’m going to be going through a lot of information because there’s a lot of things I want to touch on and you’ll all be getting a copy.

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Of this presentation. I also have to mention that I am on this call from, or this presentation from New Jersey.

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If you’re familiar with Long Beach Island, New Jersey, that’s where I am right now, although we do have a an office in Massachusetts instead of by Jean Allen, who’s somewhere on this call in this presentation.

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So we do have somebody up there. The other thing I want to mention is that Steve or Jacob mentioned that Bob Diamond was on the call.

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He’s been very involved in putting together the public policies, but he also want to mention that Ed Sand, George, who heads up a management company, in New Jersey and tech management.

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I see that Ed is also on this call, and Ed was on the original public policy task force in the last year or so the National Reserve study standards were Updated which I’m going to touch on as part of my presentation and it also served on that Committee or task force.

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And right now, as Steve mentioned, the public policy is also the process being updated.

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And I’m sharing that task force. And Ed is also on that.

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So I just wanted to pulled out for that. So he’s not hidden in the in the audience somewhere.

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As far as questions. If you have any questions while I’m going on, please dropping into the chat room, I will not see it, but I think or maybe I will see it.

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But Jake and Steve will jump in and ask with any questions you might have. Alright!

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We encourage questions, so just drop them in, and I’ll relay it to Mitch if you don’t see it, Mitch.

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Okay. Thanks. Yeah. The interactive is what makes this the best.

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I love the idea of being able to see everybody’s face rather than being set up as a panelist.

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But today we’re setting up a panelist so I can’t see we everybody in the audience when you’re falling asleep, which is it’s too bad, because I’d like to see all the faces.

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But what am I going to be talking about? There’s been a lot of changes that taking place in our industry over the last few years, and they’re all based on the tragedy that took place in Florida.

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And it’s, you know, out of tragedies sometimes comes some great things.

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There’s been some great things that come out of this, and which starts with the public policy that was mentioned which I’m gonna talk about.

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But what I’m the primary part of this presentation is to talk about structure reserves, maintenance.

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The new reserve study standards, how it connects all 3, and how it’s all based on the Cai public policy.

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Now? Where did it all start? I’m sure you’ve all seen this picture before.

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This is the collapse of Surfside, whereas I think Steve or Jake had mentioned that there were 98 people who lost their lives in this collapse, and I hate to say it.

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But this type of thing is still going on, and and why some changes.

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Big changes are taking place. Our industry, for example, this is a condo in South New Jersey, where a concrete balcony collapsed just in the last month and fell and killed the worker.

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This is in New York City I don’t know if you saw this, but there was a parking garage that collapsed in New York just in the last few weeks, and, by the way, New York, about a year or so ago, instituted certain laws that all parking garages had to be inspected and clearly there’s

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a reason for it. I actually read it on article that paper, I think, was about a week ago that over 50% of the parking garages in New York have some kind of work that needs to be done to them because of their the problems that are going on and that the one thing I have to mention and they mentioned a

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few times is one of’m going to talk about is generally not built because something was not built properly these type of conditions are happening because we’re not taking care of our buildings as they get older.

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So this is New York City, South Florida. If you look at South Florida, these are just a number of articles about Condos that have been deemed unsafe, and buildings have been shut down, but it’s not just florida because that’s always still, happening.

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I just saw our article in Idaho. Where they closed off the building because the safety issues.

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But it’s all because our buildings are getting older.

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We really need to take care of them to keep them safe as they as they age.

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So what did Cai do? As soon as the collapse took place in Florida within a couple of weeks they put together a task force national task force.

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There were about, I’d say, altogether, input from over 600 people from around the country myself and Steve Marcus, as well as Bob Diamond and Ed. St. George.

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We were involved in the development of this, if I remember correctly, Steve and I co-chair this national task force.

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But it developed this public policy safety report. And you’ll see pretty clearly here.

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It says, condominium, safety, public false report, reserve studies, funding and maintenance and structural integrity, because we instantly came to conclusion, not came to conclusion, but realized that safety for buildings is not just based on reserve studies.

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We were a little nervous because when we saw articles after surfside, it seemed to imply that if this community have properly funded their reserves, that the what happened there would never happen, but that’s not correct.

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As a matter of fact, which I’ll touch on later.

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Reserve studies don’t even include the structures of buildings, but its reserve studies, funding maintenance and strateg integrity.

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And those are the things that make up building safe. So your requirements are gonna happen.

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Even the things I’m gonna talk about are gonna happen even without these changes in the standards.

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As I mentioned the reserve study standards, public possible. These kind of things.

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But there are things going on other than this in a number of States.

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There’s legislation going on. For example, when we first started doing the public policy report, we looked all over the country to see where are is their legislation that requires people to do structural inspections of their buildings to make sure that they’re safe what we found

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was that there’s only one place in the country that had any legislation like this.

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It was actually the 2 counties in Florida, one of them where the collapse took place, and if I’m not mistaken, the first inspection didn’t have to take place until after the building was 40 years old, so there’s more and more legislation going on to solve

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that problem. For example, in New Jersey right now, there’s a legislation. S.

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2760, which Ed. San Georgia are working on, that on a daily basis in regards to structural safety, periodic inspections of things I’m going to talk about as well as reserve funding requirements.

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There’s other things going on. You’re probably all familiar with what’s going on with Fannie and Freddie, with the mortgage requirements, mortgage requirements for condos require a denseum to their reports.

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Now, or their forms. Now that require confirmation of safety, as well as reserve funding, and they’ve changed some of the reserve funding requirements as well as maintenance, I will tell you that I’ve been involved with Fanny and Freddy on this and I can promise you because

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everybody’s nervous about it. They are making some changes to what the current form work there’s kind of a recognition that the way came out.

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It came out pretty quickly after Surfside that it’s not as usual, as it could be, and I don’t know when it’s gonna come out.

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I don’t know exactly what the changes are, but I promise you that there are some changes and updates to those forms since map that goes emailing with somebody from that fha, just yesterday about this stuff.

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So there are changes coming. The other thing is insurance insurance requirements for community associations are going to change also are going to require certain things.

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But if you look at this map of the United States, this comes from the Cai website, the Blue States show the flu.

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States are states that have a reserve study or funding requirements.

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The green States have statutory guidance for reserves, but don’t have statutory requirements, and the khaki States don’t have statutory requirements or guidance for reserve studies.

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It’s kind of interesting, because if you look at the first one, Blue States have reserved study and or funding requirement, the thing that’s amazing about that is they’re probably about 10 states across this country that have or maybe little more than that based on the app that have requirements such as this some of

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them, require reserve studies. Some of them require funding, but they’re not the same.

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So in some states that may require reserve study, but doesn’t save to fund it in other states.

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Have to fund it, but it doesn’t require that you have to have a study to be a basis for that.

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If it’s my understanding. For example, the State of Massachusetts, there is a requirement in regards to adequate reserves, but as far as I know, it doesn’t even define what adequate is and if there’s any questions about that i’m sure Steve or

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Jacobs on that later. So there are things that are going to happen or are happening, even if it’s not legislatively to force everybody to keep their community safe.

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So Mitch, just yeah. To add in there the States that we do represent, which are Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Florida.

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Florida is the only one that has specific.

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You know requirements. The rest are as bitch mentioned, adequate reserves is a little more vague, and it sounds a little more elective in nature so it’s a different verbiage.

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As a lot of things happen in the condo world.

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Things that happen in Florida tend to make their way up the coast.

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So we could see that changing in in the next few years.

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But just just to add on to that.

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Yeah. Thanks. Jake. And I think I’m gonna touch on a few minutes.

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What adequate actually means. But Florida!

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They actually came out with statutory requirement to do what’s called a structural integrity reserve study.

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In addition to a standard reserve study, and I know from the people I know down that way, and we also do work in Florida that there’s really a question of what does that really mean?

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And how do you really do it? So there’s all kinds of things going on right now in the industry, and in a lot of cases, or most cases, not all cases.

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The dust hasn’t really settled for consistent policy, and a consistent thing way to make our building safe.

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But I will do not say that I’m kind of proud of the fact that Cai in a national level has been very, very proactive with what’s going on, and I don’t know what would have happened without this public policy, report, because I know in every State that I’m involved in legislatively which is

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Delaware and New Jersey they base legislation on the Cai Public Policy Report.

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But this is a an example of the Fannie Mae and Freddie reports one chip to fill out.

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For example, does the project of funding plan for deferred maintenance?

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Yes or no. So definitely focus on on deferred maintenance or well, keep in mind that this is a funding plan for deferred maintenance.

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What is deferred? Maintenance mean, deferred maintenance means you’re not doing it.

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So a lot of times we use the wrong terminology in the industry which just seems to be an example of the warm terminology, because it should be a funding plan for its’s preventive maintenance.

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There’s a project. Have a schedule for the deferred maintenance components.

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And does it have a reserve study, as you probably are aware that Fannie and Freddie were saying up until before the accident that communities need to have set aside at least 10% of their annual budget into reserves, or have a reserve study that was less than 24 months

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old. Now keep in mind that everybody recognizes that 10% of your operating budget is not a measure for reserve study, because it’s not even tied into what common elements you have.

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For example, if you have 2 communities right next to each other, one’s a high rise and one’s a townhouse community, and they both have a 3 million dollar budget.

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That means they both should be setting, setting a site 10% into that into reserves when they have totally different common elements.

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So I think what you’re going to find is in the Fannie and Freddie requirements that you’re going to see in the future.

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Somehow they’re going to be tying that into the actual common elements, not just the operating budget.

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But we’ll see about that, Fanny. This is their lender letter, where it talks about 10% budget into reserves.

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They used to say that it was either 10% or the reserve study.

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Now they’re only going by 10% of the budget.

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And they. And it’s not they can’t base it on a resource study anymore. See?

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I think they picked up made the wrong choice. It should have been based on a reserve study, not Cont.

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This is an insurance application, and this is a just to give me an idea.

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Does the community have a reserve study or funding for me, as has reserved study or plan for funding major maintenance projects been done.

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Are there separate accounts for reserve account for reserves?

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I’ve spoken to people in the insurance industry, and more and more the risks for insurance and the premiums and even maybe not getting insurance is based on whether or not the community has reserves funds for reserves and whether or not they joining maintenance to keep

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their community safe. So like I said the things I’m talking about are going to happen, whether you legislate for or dictated or not.

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Alright. So now let’s take a look at the 3 parts of the safety report and the recommendation.

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The first is link. One is structural and facade evaluations.

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Next is the resource study and the reserve study standards.

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And it’s interesting to note that after the public policy report was done by Cai, and it was recognized that maintenance structural integrity, inspections and reserves all important important for keeping your building safe.

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The task force that I was one of the co-chairs of.

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They were told we were asked by Cai to update the standards so that the reserve study reflects not only reserve components but also structural and facade evaluations as well as maintenance and I I put in asterisk nick to facade, but because it’s not

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specifically included all those strategies. And I’ll say that the one of the things that we’re doing when we’re updating the public policy right now is to include not only structural evaluations, but also for solid val evaluations which i’ll talk about in a few

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minutes. Show the last part is maintenance, and this to the left is a copy of what Steve mentioned.

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Ca, I just came out with a best practices. Report on maintenance.

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And it was just issued at the National Conference about 2 weeks ago, and you’re gonna be getting a copy of this for attending.

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It’s free anyway. But you’re gonna get a Pdf copy of it on the next few days after this presentation so now let’s talk first about structural facade.

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Evaluations, and the safety part of that of what it, what it’s based on.

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First I have to point out that within this report, and the requirements are that the inspections are of what’s called the primary load balance system.

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Now the reason I show this diagram. Here we go.

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The reason I showed this diagram, because the question always comes up, What is what is actually going to be inspected as part of this legislation?

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And the public policy. It’s the primary low bearing system.

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Now put it in very simple terms. It’s whatever in that building.

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If you took it away, could cause a part of the building, or all of the building to collapse.

00:30:28.000 –> 00:30:31.000
So it’s primarily made up if you look on the left hand side.

00:30:31.000 –> 00:30:40.000
This is a taller building you have. He’s red lines, which are these are the columns that hold up to building their vertical.

00:30:40.000 –> 00:30:48.000
You have these black lines that are the floors and the balconies that the people stand on, and you have the furniture on, and then you have these blue lines.

00:30:48.000 –> 00:30:53.000
This is called bracing, that bracing is what takes the win load or the earthquake load out of the building comes because the difference is all the weights are going vertical.

00:30:53.000 –> 00:30:58.000
The wind and the earthquake goes horizontal.

00:30:58.000 –> 00:31:08.000
So the blue takes the wind and earthquake out the red and the black take out the what are called the gravity loads the way to the building, the deadlove.

00:31:08.000 –> 00:31:09.000
What it ways to live, load the people, the snow load those type of things.

00:31:09.000 –> 00:31:15.000
But I want to show you this because when we talk about primary load bearing system and what is inspected, it’s based on this system of what holds up the buildings.

00:31:15.000 –> 00:31:24.000
So that’s what’s called the primary load bearing system.

00:31:24.000 –> 00:31:29.000
So then the question always comes up, is this only a problem with high rises?

00:31:29.000 –> 00:31:36.000
And very. We clearly came pretty quickly, came to the understanding that it’s not just high Rise buildings.

00:31:36.000 –> 00:31:41.000
The problem structurally with buildings is based on the material it’s built of, not the height of the building.

00:31:41.000 –> 00:31:59.000
So what it says in the public policy, and every legislation I’ve been involved in is that the type of buildings that require these inspections, our multifamily residential buildings constructed of concrete loadberry, masonry, steel or hybrid structural systems, such as heavy timber

00:31:59.000 –> 00:32:07.000
including podium decks. It’s not based on the height of the buildings, because the Hi I promise you I’ve been involved in the building, so only 2 stories high that are made out of reinforced concrete.

00:32:07.000 –> 00:32:12.000
And there’s one actually about 5 or 6 miles from here.

00:32:12.000 –> 00:32:13.000
That because of Bud, it gets older and it deteriorates.

00:32:13.000 –> 00:32:19.000
And as a structural prompt. So it’s not based on height.

00:32:19.000 –> 00:32:22.000
And as part of this presentation I’m gonna show you some pictures of what it looks like.

00:32:22.000 –> 00:32:26.000
But it just keep in mind. It’s not based on the height it’s based on.

00:32:26.000 –> 00:32:34.000
The what is it? Building facade? The facade is. And if you look at this page same picture, it’s the green part on the outside.

00:32:34.000 –> 00:32:35.000
It’s the thing that’s aesthetic when you look at the building, you see the facades.

00:32:35.000 –> 00:32:42.000
But the thing about the facades is that it could fall if it’s not maintained, and fall on somebody.

00:32:42.000 –> 00:32:49.000
The other thing about the science is that moisture gets through it and can deteriorate the structure behind it.

00:32:49.000 –> 00:32:56.000
So it’s it’s there are many, many cities in this country that have facade inspection requirements, as of now, for example, Boston, those have facade inspection requirements for buildings.

00:32:56.000 –> 00:33:18.000
I think that are above 70 feet in height, and the the for facades and the inspection requirements are based on height of the building, not based on the materials, and but there are not many many cities across the country that have the sought inspection requirements now which I always like to make the

00:33:18.000 –> 00:33:19.000
comment, that.

00:33:19.000 –> 00:33:20.000
So many of these cities require the facades to be inspected.

00:33:20.000 –> 00:33:26.000
So pieces of it don’t fall on somebody walking.

00:33:26.000 –> 00:33:38.000
But there were no places in this country that had structural integrity inspections to make sure the buildings didn’t fall on somebody’s living in it.

00:33:38.000 –> 00:33:53.000
By the way, another side point that when we did our research, we did find that there are cities around the world that Singapore has some very strict requirements in terms of inspections of the structural buildings, another.

00:33:53.000 –> 00:34:08.000
One is in Ontario apparently about 20 years ago they had a building collapse, and now they’re required that every 6 year, 6 years that structural integrity inspections be done of their condominium. So there’s a lot of things happening.

00:34:08.000 –> 00:34:09.000
There are some specific inspection standards that are used right now.

00:34:09.000 –> 00:34:20.000
That’ve been in place for a while that are referenced in most statutory requirements, and most like most legislation, as well as in the public policy.

00:34:20.000 –> 00:34:21.000
They’re put out by the American Society of Civil Engineers.

00:34:21.000 –> 00:34:27.000
The one on this right is guideline for structural condition assessments of existing buildings.

00:34:27.000 –> 00:34:33.000
This is how you inspect the structure. The once the left is guideline for condition.

00:34:33.000 –> 00:34:35.000
Assessment of the building envelope to building envelope.

00:34:35.000 –> 00:34:43.000
Here’s the walls in the roof. So this talks about how to inspect the facades of our standards, and we’re not reinventing the wheel by doing it.

00:34:43.000 –> 00:34:56.000
So the other thing that we came to realize pretty quickly is that the structure and safety of the building storch when the building is being built not 20 years after the building’s done being built, and people have been living in it.

00:34:56.000 –> 00:35:14.000
So the public policy and the legislation I’ve been involved in say that before turnover to the community by the developer, the structure, if there’s any changes to the structure from what the design’s wrong say that there must be an engineer’s report that says that what was built is in is

00:35:14.000 –> 00:35:21.000
equivalent in strength to what’s shown on the design drawings, or else a certificate of occupancy cannot be issued.

00:35:21.000 –> 00:35:29.000
So this is in every legislation. But this just goes to show that safety of a building starts when it’s being built about 20 years after it’s being built.

00:35:29.000 –> 00:35:42.000
The other thing. Requirements on a developer before turnover is in most places developers required for new communities to include in their in their documents and their Budget reserve fund reserve study and funding.

00:35:42.000 –> 00:35:49.000
So their money is set aside for reserves, and that’s in most places I’ve seen and even if it’s not a statutory requirement, most of the larger builders and I’ve smaller buildings, I guess off builders.

00:35:49.000 –> 00:35:58.000
Also, when they put together their original budget for their communities, they include reserve funding in it.

00:35:58.000 –> 00:36:01.000
What’s new is that the public policy at the legislation?

00:36:01.000 –> 00:36:12.000
I’ve seen does require not only reserves, but that a maintenance manual be included, which shows in it what needs to be maintained, not just what’s in the reserve study, but also the structure.

00:36:12.000 –> 00:36:15.000
What needs to be maintained, and how much it will cost.

00:36:15.000 –> 00:36:21.000
So that’ll be budgeted by the developer funded by the Association after they take over.

00:36:21.000 –> 00:36:40.000
The other thing is that if it’s a type of building I’ve mentioned before, and it requires a structural or facade inspection than the original budget put together by the developer should include not only the cost of these types of inspections, but the frequency, that they need to take place on which i’ll touch

00:36:40.000 –> 00:36:44.000
on, in a so there’s all kinds of new things are coming out of this, which are very good.

00:36:44.000 –> 00:36:45.000
Alright, so now how often should these inspections take place?

00:36:45.000 –> 00:37:02.000
To pull periodic inspections. The purpose is to monitor progressive deterioration as the building gets older for structure, the general guidelines is that that the structure should be inspected every 10 years.

00:37:02.000 –> 00:37:19.000
For the first 20 years of the building’s life, and every 5 years after the 20 years, as the building gets older, that’s because that as buildings get older they have a tennis to deteriorate more quickly as they get older the other reason you see, maximum in here is the of the periodic inspection

00:37:19.000 –> 00:37:23.000
is done in ces it should be less than 10 years, or less than 5 years.

00:37:23.000 –> 00:37:30.000
That’s the criteria, but it should know. Be no longer than every 10 years, or every 5 years after 20 years old.

00:37:30.000 –> 00:37:34.000
For facades. The general rule of thumb and most cities across the country.

00:37:34.000 –> 00:37:38.000
The maximum for facade inspections is every 5 years.

00:37:38.000 –> 00:37:44.000
Now this, these dates are these timeframes are based on buildings that are built and maintained.

00:37:44.000 –> 00:37:49.000
But what about buildings that are prior to legislation or before today?

00:37:49.000 –> 00:37:54.000
These buildings can be up to six-five 75, 80 years old, and I’ll show you an example in a second.

00:37:54.000 –> 00:38:09.000
But in that case, because they’ve gotten older. And there’s been no inspections done today that the first inspection is generally recommended within 2 years of legislating being legislation being passed or within 2 years of today, since you’re in this webinar you’re hearing all about it they should

00:38:09.000 –> 00:38:14.000
be inspected within 2 years to see what kind of problems, if any exist.

00:38:14.000 –> 00:38:18.000
If there’s ever concern about the safety or stability of the building, it should be done immediately.

00:38:18.000 –> 00:38:22.000
So I will also mention that some of the legislation is different.

00:38:22.000 –> 00:38:32.000
For example, in New Jersey, because there’s so many buildings that are prior to the legislation that hopefully will be passed very soon, that we put in a facing plan based on the age.

00:38:32.000 –> 00:38:40.000
The maximum is 6 years for the first inspection and if the building is, I think, less than 10 years, it does have to be inspected within 2 years.

00:38:40.000 –> 00:38:46.000
So, but it’s a very it’s pretty quick for the first inspection, for the older buildings.

00:38:46.000 –> 00:38:52.000
What causes the deterioration, age, and moisture agent Western.

00:38:52.000 –> 00:39:07.000
2 things has nothing to do with improper construction, and the reason I put on here not limited to waterfront locations is because there’s a perception, some people, that the only buildings that will deteriorate, are the ones that are close to lakes close to oceans and things like

00:39:07.000 –> 00:39:13.000
that there’s no question that if it’s stopped water that’s touching a structure, deterioration will happen faster.

00:39:13.000 –> 00:39:18.000
But water deteriorates buildings with or without salt.

00:39:18.000 –> 00:39:20.000
Whether or not it’s next to the ocean or not.

00:39:20.000 –> 00:39:28.000
Next to the ocean, and keep in mind I’m sure a lot of people in in Boston, for example, you have a lot of parking garages even if you’re not next to the ocean that has salt in the water.

00:39:28.000 –> 00:39:34.000
What about the cars that travel into the parking garages in the winter, and are carrying the salt for the roadways?

00:39:34.000 –> 00:39:37.000
So the cost of deterioration are age and moisture.

00:39:37.000 –> 00:39:49.000
Now I wanted to show you these 2 slides, because this is it will be split in Massachusetts, and you can get this from the census bureau, but I wanted to show you these are multifamily buildings.

00:39:49.000 –> 00:39:54.000
You’ll see 2 to 4 units, 5 to 1920 to 49, 50, or more.

00:39:54.000 –> 00:40:01.000
Now, if you look at buildings are up to 3 years old, they only make a point 2 3% of the total of all these buildings in the State.

00:40:01.000 –> 00:40:04.000
Now, what about buildings 3 years old to 23 years old?

00:40:04.000 –> 00:40:06.000
It’s 12%. What about buildings? 23 to 43 years old?

00:40:06.000 –> 00:40:14.000
17%? What about buildings? 43 to 63 years old?

00:40:14.000 –> 00:40:22.000
43%. But take a look at this. The old things that were 63 to 83 years old make up 7%.

00:40:22.000 –> 00:40:31.000
But now you take a look at in the State of Massachusetts Buildings that are more than 83 years old, make up close to 50% of the multifamily buildings.

00:40:31.000 –> 00:40:40.000
Now, it’s pretty clear that when you look at the breakdown here built 1939 or earlier, the vast majority of these are only 2 to 4 units so you’re not really talking about.

00:40:40.000 –> 00:40:45.000
But that’s the vast majority of this 49%.

00:40:45.000 –> 00:40:55.000
But the point is that our buildings are old, if they’re not maintained, and they’re not taking care of, we’re going to run into more and more problems as you can see the paper every day when you read.

00:40:55.000 –> 00:40:56.000
Now listen!

00:40:56.000 –> 00:41:00.000
My only comments on that match is I’m blown away.

00:41:00.000 –> 00:41:07.000
I haven’t have the same. You told me you were gonna provide them. But I’m blown away by yeah, those figures.

00:41:07.000 –> 00:41:18.000
If if you anybody would like the link, you can go to the United States Census Bureau and get this for any State you can actually break it down pretty much by county to see the agents, the buildings where you live.

00:41:18.000 –> 00:41:19.000
So if anybody like that link, you would just ask the sports to be happy to get it to.

00:41:19.000 –> 00:41:27.000
But it goes to show that it wills old, and they’re not being taken care of.

00:41:27.000 –> 00:41:34.000
So the problem that we’re experiencing with that we see a newspaper every day is not gonna get better unless we do something about it.

00:41:34.000 –> 00:41:37.000
So let’s talk about a few of the different common materials.

00:41:37.000 –> 00:41:38.000
First is steel. Still, you can see everybody knows what it looks like from a strength perspective.

00:41:38.000 –> 00:41:52.000
How strong it is! Steel is! The same strength in all directions, whether you pull on it, push on it, do different things, so that’s the same strength in all directions.

00:41:52.000 –> 00:42:03.000
What does it look like when it gets wet? This picture on the right is sure looking inside of a parking garage underneath what is called a podium deck, and I’ll talk about that in a second.

00:42:03.000 –> 00:42:04.000
So what happens in many, many cases, this steel for fire reasons, is covered with this white material.

00:42:04.000 –> 00:42:15.000
It’s called fireproof, and we inspect a lot of parking garage, and you see the fire pooling. So how do you know if there’s damage?

00:42:15.000 –> 00:42:16.000
When you look at it, you either see size of moisture, or seeing signs of rust, because it starts turning colors.

00:42:16.000 –> 00:42:26.000
So when you see that you take off the fireproof, and your what can you find underneath?

00:42:26.000 –> 00:42:30.000
Is this picture? On the left we pulled off the fireproof, and you could see that this steel beam is totally rusted through, and has no strength left left in it.

00:42:30.000 –> 00:42:39.000
So this is what looks like in in steel. I’ll also make the comment.

00:42:39.000 –> 00:42:42.000
I’ll make a few times that I’m an engineer.

00:42:42.000 –> 00:42:46.000
I know how to fix this. I know what the effect of it is, but you don’t need to be an engineer to see if there’s a potential problem.

00:42:46.000 –> 00:42:53.000
If you see signs of rust, call somebody to look at it.

00:42:53.000 –> 00:42:56.000
This is what Russ looks like. Everybody knows what Russ looks like.

00:42:56.000 –> 00:43:01.000
This is what happens when water and steel get together coming through the podium.

00:43:01.000 –> 00:43:03.000
Detect which I’ll talk about in a couple of seconds.

00:43:03.000 –> 00:43:08.000
So that’s steel. Now let’s look at concrete to left.

00:43:08.000 –> 00:43:15.000
This is what’s called it looks like it’s concrete all you see on the outside is concrete for those of you who are non-engineers.

00:43:15.000 –> 00:43:19.000
Concrete is very good in compression, which means pushing together.

00:43:19.000 –> 00:43:20.000
It’s very bad intention when you pull it apart.

00:43:20.000 –> 00:43:33.000
So how do they give it this strength, intention? They put reinforcing steel inside the concrete reinforcing steel and it’s protected by the concrete.

00:43:33.000 –> 00:43:34.000
But over time moisture is absorbed into the concrete.

00:43:34.000 –> 00:43:40.000
This is what looks like before corrosion. This is what looks like.

00:43:40.000 –> 00:43:42.000
Okay. As it gets more and more wet, it gets wet.

00:43:42.000 –> 00:43:46.000
It gets, starts to rust. What happens to steel when it rusts, it expands, and it starts pushing outwards, and it starts cracking out the side.

00:43:46.000 –> 00:43:54.000
The concrete, which is exactly what you’re seeing.

00:43:54.000 –> 00:43:58.000
The first thing you generally see, and I think I’ll show you another picture of it later.

00:43:58.000 –> 00:44:06.000
Is you start seeing signs of moisture. You see us white, salty, like material on the face of the concrete, which is called eff fluorescence.

00:44:06.000 –> 00:44:11.000
Then you start seeing the signs of rusting its org actually starts turning brown.

00:44:11.000 –> 00:44:15.000
So if you see this type of conditioning concrete, you’re running into a problem.

00:44:15.000 –> 00:44:18.000
And you need to get it fictioning to have somebody look at it.

00:44:18.000 –> 00:44:24.000
The right hand side is a balcony underneath the concrete balcony you see the reinforcing is rusting.

00:44:24.000 –> 00:44:31.000
It pops out the concrete. And what happens if this falls 10 stories and hit somebody the middle one is a column.

00:44:31.000 –> 00:44:35.000
It’s a vertical column, same thing. You have the reinforcing steel, and it started to rust, and it’s popping up the concrete on the left.

00:44:35.000 –> 00:44:49.000
You see this lot? It’s called a waffle slam looks like a waffle, but it has reinforcing steel in it, and it starts to rust, and there’s what’s happening if you see signs of water, if you see signs of rust if you see signs.

00:44:49.000 –> 00:45:02.000
of rust. If you see signs of water, if you see signs of rust, if you see a leak in the deck, or something above it, where the waters coming through, get somebody, take a look at and fix the along those lines from the cost perspective because people ask this a lot if you maintain

00:45:02.000 –> 00:45:09.000
something it generally costs to maintain it, prevent a maintenance about 5% of the cost of replacing.

00:45:09.000 –> 00:45:14.000
If you don’t, theyain it, and you have to fix it, which is called corrective maintenance.

00:45:14.000 –> 00:45:26.000
It costs a huge amount more at a minimum the guideline is it’s going to cost you 30 times more than the total cost of effective maintenance to fix something as opposed to preparing maintenance.

00:45:26.000 –> 00:45:31.000
So from a life cycle, cost perspective maintenance is much, much less expensive than waiting and fixing things.

00:45:31.000 –> 00:45:38.000
And that’s the biggest fear I hear from people is that if we implement these things it’s going to cost us more, it’s actually going to cost you less.

00:45:38.000 –> 00:45:45.000
Now let’s take a look at Brick on the left you see a book wall, the way Brick wall works is that water gets behind it.

00:45:45.000 –> 00:45:51.000
It’s just the normal way for it happen, and then it comes out of we polls and different types of flashing.

00:45:51.000 –> 00:46:04.000
If that water doesn’t come out, and let’s say you have a wood or steel it’s starts to deteriorate, and ultimately it can collapse because the water trapping on the brick on the right hand side is a similar situation.

00:46:04.000 –> 00:46:18.000
So if you have clogged, we pulls on your building, or you start seeing the white salty material like it’s a white salty material that’s indicative of moisture trapped behind a brick wall or within concrete do something about it.

00:46:18.000 –> 00:46:21.000
So what’s the process of doing? The inspection?

00:46:21.000 –> 00:46:29.000
I talked about periodic inspections. The first is what’s called a preliminary evaluation, and then a detailed evaluation.

00:46:29.000 –> 00:46:32.000
What’s including the primary evaluation is that you go out.

00:46:32.000 –> 00:46:40.000
You look at the entire structure you’ve got identifying any conditions of a concern like when I showed you the steel with the fireproofing.

00:46:40.000 –> 00:46:45.000
If you see Rust coming through the fireproofing, you see water that’s in condition of a concern.

00:46:45.000 –> 00:46:54.000
You identify the locations and you identify, if there may be corrective maintenance or fixing it within the report the timing for the next evaluation.

00:46:54.000 –> 00:47:02.000
And if you see problems, there are evident, then you would require what’s called a detailed evaluation, and the detail evaluation.

00:47:02.000 –> 00:47:09.000
It goes to a specific location of the structure or the facade, and goes into more detail to find out exactly what the problem is.

00:47:09.000 –> 00:47:22.000
For example, going back to the steel example with the with the fireproofing on it. If you see signs of moisture rusting the detailed evaluation would then require taking off that fireproofing to see what’s going on or geneise as well as to figure out

00:47:22.000 –> 00:47:25.000
how the water’s getting to it so you can stop it.

00:47:25.000 –> 00:47:32.000
What’s included in these type of reports includes table of contents and includes a description of what the structure is.

00:47:32.000 –> 00:47:36.000
It includes how the building is built, what it’s built out of.

00:47:36.000 –> 00:47:54.000
For example, on the left is shown structure on the right is showing the facade and, by the way, you could see in this that we used drones for everything you drones saved so much money to look at buildings facades, using drones is significantly less expensive than if you don’t use if you have to

00:47:54.000 –> 00:48:08.000
go with facades, and it can identify places that you need to look at and work close to detail. The other thing I’ll mention is we’re more and more using artificial intelligence to you forade inspections because once you take pictures of it.

00:48:08.000 –> 00:48:11.000
Using, artificial intelligence, it can specifically identify problems that you may not be able to see visually solution great technology in the evaluation.

00:48:11.000 –> 00:48:19.000
There’s always a rating system. What’s the condition?

00:48:19.000 –> 00:48:22.000
What is severe, mean? What is modern mean? What does minor mean?

00:48:22.000 –> 00:48:34.000
And, for example, we’re in the process right now, finishing up facade inspection for building in Philadelphia at Philadelphia has a very specific rating system that you have to use in reports for facades in Philadelphia.

00:48:34.000 –> 00:48:35.000
But you could see severe description record recommendation requires a details assessment, and remediation in the media future.

00:48:35.000 –> 00:48:46.000
But if you have a one of these inspections, thunder has to be a very a rating system.

00:48:46.000 –> 00:48:48.000
So you know what you’re looking at what’s the inspection process in this case?

00:48:48.000 –> 00:48:58.000
You walk back and forth in the parking garage in this one the facade you go back and forth to the drone to identify the conditions.

00:48:58.000 –> 00:49:01.000
Then you have a report that shows the specific locations in the rating.

00:49:01.000 –> 00:49:06.000
For example, this is that garage. This is a minor condition.

00:49:06.000 –> 00:49:10.000
This is the same garage. This is a modern condition. Similar thing.

00:49:10.000 –> 00:49:17.000
But this is a severe condition where you can see that there’s some severe problems here that need to be taken care of right away.

00:49:17.000 –> 00:49:20.000
Alright! Now let’s talk about the next link, which is reserve studies.

00:49:20.000 –> 00:49:24.000
The updated reserve study standards, and how does it tie everything together?

00:49:24.000 –> 00:49:28.000
First involve, keep in mind that a reserve study is not done by an engineer.

00:49:28.000 –> 00:49:36.000
It’s not. It does not say asks outside the scope of resurf study include structural or safety.

00:49:36.000 –> 00:49:42.000
Evaluations a reserve study. Don’t forget, does not include inspection of the structure.

00:49:42.000 –> 00:49:49.000
What does it look like? You’ve all seen this physical analysis, financial analysis, the cash flow the component inventory.

00:49:49.000 –> 00:50:03.000
How do you select what goes on? The research study is changing, and someone of things are changing, or that it used to be that in most cases people only included components that were required replacement within 30 years of the day to the reserve study.

00:50:03.000 –> 00:50:20.000
Now there’s a terminology in the standards that’s called long life components, where components pass the thirty-year period are either included or identified, so they will be added if there’s some changes in terms of what’s called a 30 year old how does it include maintenance in the

00:50:20.000 –> 00:50:24.000
structure. I think I may have mentioned this before. It’s very specific that when doing reserve study, the proider has to talk to the client to see if they do any type of maintenance.

00:50:24.000 –> 00:50:33.000
The building. If they don’t do any maintenance, then they’re useful lives of the components in the reserve study should be reduced if applicable, so keep in mind.

00:50:33.000 –> 00:50:42.000
It makes a big difference, because, you have a roof for $100,000 in a 20 year. Life!

00:50:42.000 –> 00:50:49.000
That’s $5,000 a year. But if you don’t maintain it only has a 10 year life, it’s twice as much as you should be.

00:50:49.000 –> 00:51:03.000
Setting aside, so the reserve study is going to take that into account based on the new standards the other thing, as I mentioned the standards require that if you do, structural inspections or facade inspections, the cost and timing of that should be included in the reserve study as well as the

00:51:03.000 –> 00:51:08.000
cost, and timing for updating the study so I don’t go pretty quick with this stuff.

00:51:08.000 –> 00:51:13.000
Some supplemental reports. It recommends. These are not done by the regerve study Provider.

00:51:13.000 –> 00:51:16.000
In most cases there are some that are qualified to do that.

00:51:16.000 –> 00:51:17.000
For example, my firm does reserve studies, and we are engineers.

00:51:17.000 –> 00:51:25.000
But keep in mind that a reserve specialist, which is the Cai destination for doing reserve studies at least 50% of the Rs are not engineers.

00:51:25.000 –> 00:51:33.000
They’re not required to be engineers, because reserve study is a budgetary tool.

00:51:33.000 –> 00:51:45.000
But it’s gonna recommend when a reserve service done, that there’s supplementary reports done by the Association preventive meat and schedule and the periodic structure inspections, I’m going pretty fast on this one.

00:51:45.000 –> 00:51:50.000
But then I mentioned a 30 year rule, and now inclusion of long life components.

00:51:50.000 –> 00:51:58.000
There’s 2 ways to do that to include the components and fund for them, or to include the components and show them, but not fund for them.

00:51:58.000 –> 00:52:06.000
In most cases, I would say that when you’re having your study updated, you’re going to include them, but not fun for them.

00:52:06.000 –> 00:52:12.000
But you’re gonna and the reason you do that is cause it would result in a huge jump in how much you’re setting aside in a lot of cases.

00:52:12.000 –> 00:52:17.000
But at least you’ll see in your study what are the components to the longer useful life.

00:52:17.000 –> 00:52:23.000
So you know, as soon as they get to 30 years they should be included in the study for new associations and new research studies.

00:52:23.000 –> 00:52:30.000
They should include all the long-life components. Other thing is before the studies.

00:52:30.000 –> 00:52:34.000
The a prior research standards were only based on primarily what you can see.

00:52:34.000 –> 00:52:43.000
So if you saw something included it. Now, it’s very clear that there are things in buildings that you can’t see that will require being replaced in high rises.

00:52:43.000 –> 00:52:44.000
You have riser pipes and they have plumbing and they have all kinds of things that can cost you a lot of money.

00:52:44.000 –> 00:52:57.000
But they’re not including the reserve study. It’s very specific now that it says that that components may not be tangible or visually observable.

00:52:57.000 –> 00:53:03.000
Yet should still be considered for inclusion in the study based on the expertise of reserve specialists so you’re gonna see that reserve studies are gonna include in some way cost for unseen components.

00:53:03.000 –> 00:53:18.000
This is pointing out very clearly in a publication by Ca, i’ breaking point, examining ag infrastructure and community associations.

00:53:18.000 –> 00:53:22.000
We’re talks about. Where does the money come from for things you can’t see.

00:53:22.000 –> 00:53:24.000
Now let’s get back to adequacy. What does it mean?

00:53:24.000 –> 00:53:34.000
Adequacy, because that terminology comes up a lot in the industry comes up in Massachusetts when it comes to reserve studies and I, as far as I know, it’s not defined.

00:53:34.000 –> 00:53:39.000
But howequacy essentially means over the 30 year cash flow, projection, period.

00:53:39.000 –> 00:53:48.000
You will not need any money other than what’s in the reserve fund to make a replacement that doesn’t mean you let it go down to 0.

00:53:48.000 –> 00:53:52.000
You may need to include a buffer in there which most people do, and it generally recommends that now.

00:53:52.000 –> 00:53:56.000
But it means that over that 30 year period you do not run into a deficit, so that’s essentially the deficit of adequacy.

00:53:56.000 –> 00:54:17.000
It’s pretty straightforward, but if you look at your cash flow projection in your reserve study as part of the funding plan which should be included if it goes below 0 over that projection period, that means you are not adequately funded, the preparer qualifications pretty clear

00:54:17.000 –> 00:54:36.000
that the individual has Rs designation, resource specialist, destination for Cai is the most qualified individual to conduct reserve studies in terms of updates you know, it’s the best practices that reserve studies be updated every 3 years worst case every 5 years the other thing in

00:54:36.000 –> 00:54:54.000
most legislation I’m involved in. It’s specifically calls out that the standard that all reserve study should be prepared in conforms with are the Cai reserve study standards, and the person who does the reserve study should either be somebody with rs designation or somebody who’s equally qualified because

00:54:54.000 –> 00:54:58.000
nobody’s going to specifically say it’s only somebody in Rs destination.

00:54:58.000 –> 00:55:01.000
But it should be somebody who’s qualified. Alright!

00:55:01.000 –> 00:55:02.000
Now the next part.

00:55:02.000 –> 00:55:05.000
Mitch, can I? Can I stop you for a chat question?

00:55:05.000 –> 00:55:08.000
Oh, please! Do!

00:55:08.000 –> 00:55:18.000
Okay, yeah. A person in the audience states, what about aging fire sprinkler systems?

00:55:18.000 –> 00:55:25.000
We are 20 years old, have had 2 fire sprinkler heads burst from cold to the past 9 years.

00:55:25.000 –> 00:55:33.000
Just had a first sprinkle between walls. How do these get inspected and repeated before the leak occurs?

00:55:33.000 –> 00:55:42.000
That’s that’s a great question. I’m actually involved in a couple of these right now that first of all, a fire protection system is a safety issue in a building, it’s not just the structure.

00:55:42.000 –> 00:55:45.000
If there’s a fire, it does go off. It’s pretty important.

00:55:45.000 –> 00:55:51.000
Obviously as far as including in the reserve study, it might be you have to look into drawings to make some kind of estimate as far as how do you monitor them?

00:55:51.000 –> 00:56:13.000
Because you can’t see them. There are certain procedures that you can do for doing this, and if you look at your local state or local requirements, most of them have cert requirements that are fire protection system needs to be checked by a fire protection, company every few years so the are ways to check

00:56:13.000 –> 00:56:20.000
it might be a pressure test. So many systems are wet pipe systems so there’s a dry pipe systems.

00:56:20.000 –> 00:56:26.000
So there may be different ways to check them. But you can’t put a fire protection system in a building and never do anything to check them.

00:56:26.000 –> 00:56:33.000
They need to be checked every short period of time. And again, it’s based on the type of system, and it’s far as time fromrames.

00:56:33.000 –> 00:56:34.000
Take a look at what your local requirements are, or you can send me an email or contact me on the side.

00:56:34.000 –> 00:56:47.000
And I could tell, make suggestions for you on how they should be tested, even if you can’t see them. But it’s great question.

00:56:47.000 –> 00:56:49.000
Alright, so let’s jump into maintenance again.

00:56:49.000 –> 00:56:54.000
This is the best practices. Report that just came out, and what is, you know?

00:56:54.000 –> 00:57:02.000
I always say that when you design a building, an engineer architect designs building, they design it to make sure it looks good to make sure it doesn’t fall down.

00:57:02.000 –> 00:57:11.000
All these kinds of things, but one of the things that the code does not require is that it be designed to keep it from deteriorating as it gets older.

00:57:11.000 –> 00:57:14.000
So what protects the building? Its maintenance? I talked about the sought to keep the water out, but that’s what protects the building.

00:57:14.000 –> 00:57:34.000
And if, for example, in Delaware, the statute, the legislation includes, you have to do a facade inspection, and one of the most important parts of facade inspection includes very specifically is checking the joints in the facade to make sure that water can’t

00:57:34.000 –> 00:57:39.000
get in. It has to be maintained. There are 3 different types of maintenance and I’m gonna start at the bottom because most people love maintenance into just one word.

00:57:39.000 –> 00:57:46.000
Maintenance. The first at the bottom is called deferred maintenance.

00:57:46.000 –> 00:57:48.000
I mentioned this before. What is the third maintenance mean?

00:57:48.000 –> 00:57:57.000
It means you don’t do it, deferred the top preventive maintenance is what we talked about primarily, preventive maintenance is a proactive plan.

00:57:57.000 –> 00:58:00.000
We’ve actually can plan it and do it. We’re doing 2 things.

00:58:00.000 –> 00:58:16.000
You’re inspecting on a regular basis, and you’re doing things on a regular basis, such as, let’s say, do a sealing or painting of a would deck something like that to keep from deteriorating or preventive is the most proactive and really the only proactive type

00:58:16.000 –> 00:58:32.000
of maintenance. If you don’t do preventive maintenance, or you do deferred maintenance, which is the same thing, you result in corrective maintenance, which I mentioned before, corrective maintenance is carried out following the detection of a problem with a goal of fixing

00:58:32.000 –> 00:58:45.000
it so corrected. Maintenance is something you can plan for, and the generally the worst problems with corrective maintenance is, if you don’t do preventive, manage, or you do deferred maintenance. So keep in mind.

00:58:45.000 –> 00:58:46.000
There’s 3 types of maintenance, the one you should all be doing.

00:58:46.000 –> 00:59:05.000
Everybody should do is preventive maintenance, and, as I mentioned before, just as a rule of thumb invented maintenance should cost you generally about in the range of 5% of your total replacement costs but keep in mind, if you’re basing your replayement, plus only under reserve study, that does not

00:59:05.000 –> 00:59:15.000
include the structure the structure is very important to maintain. So these are the 3 different types of maintenance now let’s start with the life cycle costs because everybody talks about how much does it cost?

00:59:15.000 –> 00:59:33.000
And I do. I think I told Stephen Jake I did a webinar like this about a week ago, and one of the first questions I asked is, what’s the most important thing for you in your community number one safety number two’s property values and number 3 is lifecycle cost the one that

00:59:33.000 –> 00:59:34.000
one out over everything was the lifecycle cost with maintenance and safety coming in second.

00:59:34.000 –> 00:59:55.000
But the biggest concern everybody has is of the cost of maintenance fees in these types of single life cycle cost that’s why I keep on saying over and over again that preventive means this 4 to 5% of the replacement costs but corrected maintenance 30 times the

00:59:55.000 –> 01:00:04.000
cumulative cost of preventive maintenance. So if you don’t do preventive maintenance, it’s going to cost you a lot more dollar life cycle of your building, so don’t be afraid of the cost of preventive maintenance.

01:00:04.000 –> 01:00:09.000
It actually saves you a lot of money over the lifecycle cost.

01:00:09.000 –> 01:00:15.000
Now, how do all these things connect?

01:00:15.000 –> 01:00:16.000

01:00:16.000 –> 01:00:20.000
How much can I stop you for 1 min? So one you’re doing amazing.

01:00:20.000 –> 01:00:23.000
I can’t believe that you’re at Slide 60.

01:00:23.000 –> 01:00:24.000
That’s good.

01:00:24.000 –> 01:00:32.000
This has been fascinating. We’re we’re at the 110’clock hour.

01:00:32.000 –> 01:00:46.000
But well, we have not lost very many people other than 2 people who are to leave for for other files or appointments.

01:00:46.000 –> 01:01:08.000
My suggestion is that if you’re willing is that you continue, maybe for another 15 min, or whatever you think, and the recording and the and a Youtube version will be on our website am condol law.com.

01:01:08.000 –> 01:01:22.000
Next week. So if people have to leave, they’ll not see how many leave they can pick up for the 15 or so minutes that they miss.

01:01:22.000 –> 01:01:23.000

01:01:23.000 –> 01:01:30.000
So with that sorry for interrupting. But yeah, this is I’m just blown away with how how great this presentation is.

01:01:30.000 –> 01:01:31.000
Alright. Thank you.

01:01:31.000 –> 01:01:33.000
Yeah, it’s very good, very good. I just wanna add 2 things.

01:01:33.000 –> 01:01:34.000
We’re getting a lot of questions. If we don’t get it to it.

01:01:34.000 –> 01:01:37.000
During the presentation, because Mitch has a very good, you know this.

01:01:37.000 –> 01:01:38.000
This is awesome stuff, and these 15 min will be valuable. You know.

01:01:38.000 –> 01:01:48.000
And just speaking, you know, maintenance is gonna be very important.

01:01:48.000 –> 01:01:50.000
It’s gonna save you a lot in the long run.

01:01:50.000 –> 01:01:54.000
And I just wanna point out one more thing to the sprinkler question.

01:01:54.000 –> 01:01:58.000
Ed Stan George did comment. He says Nfpa.

01:01:58.000 –> 01:02:03.000
Recommends quarterly fire suppression, testing.

01:02:03.000 –> 01:02:04.000
Okay. Thanks.

01:02:04.000 –> 01:02:08.000
And for those who don’t know FDA.

01:02:08.000 –> 01:02:15.000
Is headquarters are in Quincy, Massachusetts, about a mile from our office.

01:02:15.000 –> 01:02:16.000
One fact.

01:02:16.000 –> 01:02:20.000
And Fba stands for National Fire Protection Association.

01:02:20.000 –> 01:02:31.000
So I have a somebody’s trying to write some question about 80 or a building or 4 unit, Billy, and I’m but I’m not understanding the question.

01:02:31.000 –> 01:02:34.000
So for Ron. I would ask that they try to restate it.

01:02:34.000 –> 01:02:35.000
But then I have a question.

01:02:35.000 –> 01:02:40.000
Oh, he’s he’s asking, how how much is a structure inspection, and how much is a reserve study?

01:02:40.000 –> 01:02:43.000
Very unit for an 80 unit building and for 4 year in building.

01:02:43.000 –> 01:02:46.000
Are you nasty, Thomas? How’d you know?

01:02:46.000 –> 01:02:47.000
I see, I think, connected connected the dots.

01:02:47.000 –> 01:02:51.000
How, how’d you know? Yeah, okay.

01:02:51.000 –> 01:02:53.000
So the question again is.

01:02:53.000 –> 01:02:59.000
It’s how much is a structural inspection? How much is a reserve study?

01:02:59.000 –> 01:03:03.000
Mitch. I’m not sure if you can.

01:03:03.000 –> 01:03:08.000
It ranges, or I know it’s tricky.

01:03:08.000 –> 01:03:20.000
Giving a definitive price on something before you know more.

01:03:20.000 –> 01:03:35.000
But I have 2 suggestions. One is, if you give out your email address or your or your office telephone, maybe they can talk to you about it.

01:03:35.000 –> 01:03:46.000
Offline, or if you have a general rule of thumb in terms of how the pricing goes on. A lesson is this, for reserve study, shape, or engineering studies.

01:03:46.000 –> 01:03:47.000

01:03:47.000 –> 01:03:50.000
Said reserve studies as well as a structural inspection.

01:03:50.000 –> 01:03:55.000
And Mitch has both qualifications, so he can do both.

01:03:55.000 –> 01:03:56.000

01:03:56.000 –> 01:03:57.000
Any answer?

01:03:57.000 –> 01:03:59.000
Yeah, let me. And I apologize for we’re taking so long.

01:03:59.000 –> 01:04:08.000
Usually I can get this done in about 50 min. I I don’t know what’s wrong with me today, but structural inspection. It’s usually for the preliminary evaluations.

01:04:08.000 –> 01:04:16.000
It’s usually in a range of about 7,000 $510,000, which, based on the timing, is about $1,000 a year for reserve study.

01:04:16.000 –> 01:04:22.000
It’s usually dependent. It’s much more complex and expensive for a higher rise than it is for a low rise.

01:04:22.000 –> 01:04:27.000
But for a new study, not an update it’s usually a range of 3 to $6,000.

01:04:27.000 –> 01:04:31.000
But it all depends on the type of the building, and done not to put a commercial in.

01:04:31.000 –> 01:04:36.000
But if you went to kipcon.com, there’s also request for, and there’s no cost to get a proposal.

01:04:36.000 –> 01:04:46.000
And Jake is a second question from a person identified as a anonymous attendee.

01:04:46.000 –> 01:04:47.000
And it’s very long, and I’m old.

01:04:47.000 –> 01:05:06.000
So, Jake, can you read the question to Mitch and it starts with the Condo board retains, and then engineering firm to determine copy of the 2 level S Hf syncing foundation.

01:05:06.000 –> 01:05:08.000
Do you wanna read it?

01:05:08.000 –> 01:05:17.000
Yeah, it’s asking the Condo Board retained an engineering firm to determine the cause of a second foundation.

01:05:17.000 –> 01:05:24.000
They receive reports, receive recommendations that they are dissatisfied with what they’ve received.

01:05:24.000 –> 01:05:29.000
As far as quality and analysis. So they sent back with a ton of questions.

01:05:29.000 –> 01:05:36.000
And basically, the question is, could the Board use the expert reports?

01:05:36.000 –> 01:05:42.000
Experts report or you know what fee should the board be charged for?

01:05:42.000 –> 01:05:46.000
Either report a assuming that they provide a revisit.

01:05:46.000 –> 01:05:47.000

01:05:47.000 –> 01:05:49.000
Alright! That’s that’s a totally specific instance.

01:05:49.000 –> 01:05:50.000
There are no idea.

01:05:50.000 –> 01:05:52.000
Yeah, yeah.

01:05:52.000 –> 01:05:56.000
Is it one if they go to Kim kong.com?

01:05:56.000 –> 01:06:06.000
They could post something or ask for a quote, or do whatever, and perhaps get more information.

01:06:06.000 –> 01:06:09.000
Or is it just 2 of the 7?

01:06:09.000 –> 01:06:13.000
I think they should talk to their legal counsel first on this one.

01:06:13.000 –> 01:06:14.000
Be quite honest with you.

01:06:14.000 –> 01:06:19.000
Oh, what an awful idea! Attorney’s horrible people to talk to!

01:06:19.000 –> 01:06:23.000
I have but the okay, I think that’s great advice.

01:06:23.000 –> 01:06:24.000
Talk, to.

01:06:24.000 –> 01:06:26.000
If they want to reference the law firm, let me know.

01:06:26.000 –> 01:06:32.000
There are plenty of good ones, not around the call, but.

01:06:32.000 –> 01:06:35.000
Now you see the way I do stand up. Comedy. Okay?

01:06:35.000 –> 01:06:36.000
So let me go back.

01:06:36.000 –> 01:06:43.000
Yeah, alright. But let let me answer 1 one thing that is in there that go to the legal.

01:06:43.000 –> 01:06:58.000
So the the report and and it being an expert, is really there are some attorneys.

01:06:58.000 –> 01:07:14.000
Or and there are some cases where we will engage the engineer for purposes at least for a period of time, of keeping the report.

01:07:14.000 –> 01:07:25.000
Yeah. Non. Discoverable. If this litigation or arbitration, sometimes we even sit down with the engineer and have them verbally.

01:07:25.000 –> 01:07:39.000
Tell us what their report is. But eventually, typically the report gets disclosed.

01:07:39.000 –> 01:07:48.000
But some attorneys do use that tactic, so speak, to whatever you get, and expert opinion.

01:07:48.000 –> 01:08:11.000
Speak to your legal counsel. If this potential action against the declare or converter, or a contractor as to where they want the report to go, and whether it’s part of the attorney’s records versus the association.

01:08:11.000 –> 01:08:12.000
sorry much. Take it away.

01:08:12.000 –> 01:08:16.000
Very alright. This I apologize. This shouldn’t take that much longer.

01:08:16.000 –> 01:08:19.000
Now, what it all comes down to is, what’s the connection between structures, reserves, and maintenance?

01:08:19.000 –> 01:08:28.000
And how do they connect? I use this graphic because this is a building that has what’s called a podium deck.

01:08:28.000 –> 01:08:31.000
You see, running across here, and I think you could see my pointer.

01:08:31.000 –> 01:08:32.000
Now, what a podium deck does! And so in some terms, it’s called a transfer deck.

01:08:32.000 –> 01:08:43.000
It has a few different names, but I’m gonna use the example where you have a parting garage underneath the building, and then you have a Dck on top of it.

01:08:43.000 –> 01:08:48.000
A podium deck, where some of it is exposed to the outside and some of it’s under the building.

01:08:48.000 –> 01:08:52.000
This is where I showed you the structural steel before that’s covered with a fireproofing.

01:08:52.000 –> 01:09:06.000
But what you have from a reserve study perspective on this podium deck you may have a membrane that keeps the water from getting through the surface of the podium deck goes on the reserve study let’s say for example, as a 20 year life.

01:09:06.000 –> 01:09:11.000
Then you have maintenance. If you don’t maintain that podium deck and water starts getting through it.

01:09:11.000 –> 01:09:12.000
And you start having problems with it. It’s going to deteriorate.

01:09:12.000 –> 01:09:19.000
And instead, having a 20 year life, and they have 15 year life.

01:09:19.000 –> 01:09:34.000
Now let’s take it to the next step. If you don’t maintain it in order to start getting through it, the water will now get to the structure underneath and start rusting the structure way so it’ll cost 30 times as I said, the cost of the prevailingtenance which

01:09:34.000 –> 01:09:40.000
doesn’t include the reduction in use of the reduction in life based on the reserve study.

01:09:40.000 –> 01:09:43.000
So I showed you this because you can see how all of them are connected and the key to everything is the preventive maintenance program.

01:09:43.000 –> 01:09:56.000
Because the preventive maintenance program will make sure you get the full lic out of the podium deck and it’ll also make sure that the water doesn’t get through to deteriorate the structure.

01:09:56.000 –> 01:10:05.000
So, if this is my way of showing that how everything is connected now, if you take a look at this podium down left hand side, it’s not maintained.

01:10:05.000 –> 01:10:12.000
The cores come in with the water. It starts getting through the concrete and rusting and reinforcing steel.

01:10:12.000 –> 01:10:26.000
The one in the middle is most decks like this have what’s called an expansion joint, because the concrete or the steel has a tendency to expand and contract with temperature there’s a piece of plastic that goes over this expansion joint that isn’t meant to make

01:10:26.000 –> 01:10:30.000
The Expansion joint work. It’s meant to keep the water from getting through it.

01:10:30.000 –> 01:10:39.000
In this case, look what happened. The expansion joint still works, but the ceiling I’ll call it the plastic cap is gone because it was gone after 10 years.

01:10:39.000 –> 01:10:40.000
Let’s say so. What happens is the water gets through and it roughs out the structure underneath.

01:10:40.000 –> 01:11:02.000
So this skin shows the connection between all of the 3. Now, what do you do as a manager or a homeowner, or anybody where you’re walking through, and you see something because, like I said before, if you see something say something if there’s any steel look for rust if concrete, look for

01:11:02.000 –> 01:11:07.000
cracking this, the deterioration and concrete is a great picture all the time.

01:11:07.000 –> 01:11:10.000
You still see a crack like you see a crack up here.

01:11:10.000 –> 01:11:11.000
Then what you see is this white material it’s called afloat.

01:11:11.000 –> 01:11:20.000
It’s mean that water is coming through, and it carries the salt from the concrete to the outside.

01:11:20.000 –> 01:11:25.000
If that water continues to come through, it starts to rust the reinforcing steel misses what it looks like.

01:11:25.000 –> 01:11:29.000
The longer you wait, the more it’s gonna cost for it to fix it.

01:11:29.000 –> 01:11:32.000
So as soon as you start seeing signs like this as a manager or board member say something.

01:11:32.000 –> 01:11:43.000
It’s much cheaper to fix it if it’s wood you just look, you can tell what deteriorated, what looks like.

01:11:43.000 –> 01:11:47.000
Here’s another example. This is, you started seeing, rusting in there were water in the concrete.

01:11:47.000 –> 01:11:52.000
And then the steel column behind it is starting to rust away.

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Now these are some of my classic pictures, because I see these all the times, and if you’re a manager, do not let these happen because they cause safety issues in a parking garage below a podium deck, or they put in the waters, coming through and dripping on people’s cars

01:12:07.000 –> 01:12:09.000
so where they do, they put in the famous Blue Tarp to direct the water away from the cars.

01:12:09.000 –> 01:12:19.000
What we took this blue tarp off the structure behind it deteriorated when it wasn’t safe.

01:12:19.000 –> 01:12:27.000
Here’s some other examples they pull in. They don’t want the mortar drip on the course. They put in a series of gutters and down spouts to get the water away.

01:12:27.000 –> 01:12:36.000
Look what you start seeing around this gutter, you see the rusty underinforcing steel and the concrete starting to fall this is one of my favorite favorite ones.

01:12:36.000 –> 01:12:53.000
The concrete was falling, so they put in a neck to keep the concrete from falling on the cars, but through the net you can see the rusting of the rainforest steel and pieces of concrete that have fallen away again another example of the directing the water save

01:12:53.000 –> 01:12:58.000
for, this is a parking garage where there’s joints every 4 or 5 feet.

01:12:58.000 –> 01:13:05.000
Every one of them is fine, but if you go to one of left there must be some going on, because they put in this gutter and down to get the water away.

01:13:05.000 –> 01:13:11.000
Now this is my favorite one, and I think this might be one of my last slides. So this is one of my last slides.

01:13:11.000 –> 01:13:15.000
This is my favorite one parking garage, where there was water coming through.

01:13:15.000 –> 01:13:25.000
So what did they do? They put in this diverter, so the water that’s coming through is diverted to the side into this steel beam so it’s deferred it into the steel beam.

01:13:25.000 –> 01:13:40.000
This is the web, the fireproofing, and now the steel beam is rusting away, because the water that’s coming through the joint is being directed to the steel beam by whoever put this in, and it, shows if you see things like this, it shouldn’t be there and if you do some

01:13:40.000 –> 01:13:44.000
of these things. It can just make the conditions worse. So with all that said, That’s if anybody has any questions.

01:13:44.000 –> 01:13:56.000
I did, but I did see in the question. Answer one thing that I haven’t touched on it says, let’s see it asked about. Let’s say.

01:13:56.000 –> 01:14:05.000
I saw one about. Does the developer have to turn over architectural structural drawings?

01:14:05.000 –> 01:14:10.000
You touched upon turning over a maintenance manual for the future.

01:14:10.000 –> 01:14:18.000
But the question, aye, sae was, does the developer have to turn over the drawings?

01:14:18.000 –> 01:14:31.000
Well, generally the developer turning over the draws this kind of information, statutory requirements, I don’t know if any developers can start doing all this kind of stuff just because the public policy says it that’s generally our legislation.

01:14:31.000 –> 01:14:39.000
But let’s see, there was another question. I don’t know where it went, having to do how much is structure, especially I.

01:14:39.000 –> 01:14:45.000
Well, if there’s any other questions, I think Steve and Jacob things to touch on.

01:14:45.000 –> 01:14:47.000
But please feel free to jump in, but and feel.

01:14:47.000 –> 01:14:58.000
So you have a lot of friends on the one you have 58 people we were up to like 75.

01:14:58.000 –> 01:14:59.000
They’re all sleeping.

01:14:59.000 –> 01:15:18.000
You still have 58 people still on the call, but we have but we have comments that we’ve never taken out and I have never seen before, such as Thank you and and the excellent idea this is a fabulous presentation and should definitely go on, or you should do a

01:15:18.000 –> 01:15:19.000
Add up.

01:15:19.000 –> 01:15:23.000
second show. This is been so helpful, and then educational, but I have to bow out.

01:15:23.000 –> 01:15:24.000
Thank you for putting this together. Thank you for all for doing this.

01:15:24.000 –> 01:15:37.000
I have worked with Mitch and his team for years. They are best have a great weekend. I’ll sign Mitch’s.

01:15:37.000 –> 01:15:38.000

01:15:38.000 –> 01:15:45.000
Thanks a lot. I appreciate all the comments I think that’s they’re saying all that because your cutting me off now my time’s up.

01:15:45.000 –> 01:15:50.000
But I ask you to tell. I like to talk. It doesn’t matter how long I’m actually doing the M.

01:15:50.000 –> 01:15:53.000
3, 70, class for Ci. Today’s my webinar day.

01:15:53.000 –> 01:15:54.000
It’s managing developing communities. That Cai puts on nationally.

01:15:54.000 –> 01:16:04.000
It was yesterday from 12 to 3, and today from 12 to 3, and as a matter of fact, Bob Diamond is one of the other.

01:16:04.000 –> 01:16:20.000
So with all the time that you’ve devoted to see AI now and over the decades.

01:16:20.000 –> 01:16:21.000
Let’s see.

01:16:21.000 –> 01:16:26.000
How do you do anything else, such as go to Long Island with your to the show, with your family?

01:16:26.000 –> 01:16:29.000
No, it’s Long Beach Island, hey? They would prefer that.

01:16:29.000 –> 01:16:31.000
Oh, Long Beach Island. Okay. I know I’d mess with them.

01:16:31.000 –> 01:16:32.000
I went to Long Island, because then they I wouldn’t be here.

01:16:32.000 –> 01:16:45.000
But it’s all you do, what you enjoy, I mean, and you know that I mean not to get into the psychology of people, but the people that are busiest to host say yes to everything we’re gonna tell you.

01:16:45.000 –> 01:16:51.000
But you do this because you enjoy it, and you enjoy it, and it’s a you know.

01:16:51.000 –> 01:16:57.000
I think, that there’s a huge obligation on our industry right now to make our buildings safe, and I’m just happy to be involved in Cai, because Cai is being so proactive about this.

01:16:57.000 –> 01:17:03.000
And I’ll just mention it a couple of weeks ago.

01:17:03.000 –> 01:17:11.000
I’m up to Cai National Conference in Dallas, and I sat in on a seminar given by heads of Community Association groups from all around the world. That was somebody from Australia.

01:17:11.000 –> 01:17:18.000
Somebody from Spain, somebody from, I think, all over the world.

01:17:18.000 –> 01:17:19.000
That one of the questions which asked all of them is, What’s the biggest concerns in your communities around the world?

01:17:19.000 –> 01:17:30.000
Every one of them answered the question, saying, It’s the aging of our buildings, and how do we keep them safe?

01:17:30.000 –> 01:17:33.000
So that it’s a common thing all across the world.

01:17:33.000 –> 01:17:35.000
Buildings are getting older and we don’t want them to fall on anybody.

01:17:35.000 –> 01:17:41.000
So that’s it’s pretty important stuff, that’s for sure.

01:17:41.000 –> 01:17:42.000
It is good.

01:17:42.000 –> 01:17:43.000
So, if anybody got anything added this, it’s up to you now.

01:17:43.000 –> 01:17:52.000
The these 53 people that are left to go back to the communities and talk about this. You’re the messengers.

01:17:52.000 –> 01:18:00.000
Yeah, and these the you kick the can down the road.

01:18:00.000 –> 01:18:08.000
But you brought up something that I’m not sure all associations are aware of in Boston, specifically with facade inspections every 5 years, etc.

01:18:08.000 –> 01:18:38.000
Now stressing how critical it is to ensure that there’s never another surfside, and on the heels of Davenport, Iowa, there are still concerns, but I know that you’re plotting a long and florida or New Jersey and

01:18:41.000 –> 01:19:08.000
other other locals, to teach from place to place, mandates for doing these inspections, because in public policy means those things, would say, I wants to advocate for passage in all 50 States in the District of Columbia.

01:19:08.000 –> 01:19:10.000
So we take this all very seriously. We know it has some staggering numbers.

01:19:10.000 –> 01:19:18.000
In some cases, but what has to be done? But they all the expression from Wayne Hyatt.

01:19:18.000 –> 01:19:27.000
He used to do the last seminars for years and years, and those to say a lot of people.

01:19:27.000 –> 01:19:35.000
His expression was if you bury your head in the sands, you know what part of your anatomy is exposed.

01:19:35.000 –> 01:19:48.000
So with that. So with that, I wanna thank Mitch, yeah, for I thought was a fascinating.

01:19:48.000 –> 01:19:54.000
And information packed, the webinar, you ever receiving the Powerpoint ever receiving other materials from us?

01:19:54.000 –> 01:20:01.000
Next week the this program will be posted on the website next week.

01:20:01.000 –> 01:20:02.000
So with the this Power plan alone, you may want to print it out and use it as a desk.

01:20:02.000 –> 01:20:21.000
This program will be posted on and use it as a desk guide and on the best practice on maintenance. Same thing.

01:20:21.000 –> 01:20:33.000
This just so much information here, and I’m amazed that Mitch covered it in the time he did, and which said, and was such dignity and grace.

01:20:33.000 –> 01:20:34.000
Dignity. You’ve never! That’s a first.

01:20:34.000 –> 01:20:45.000
Yeah. Alright. Well, I’ve I’ve established and connected with my name.

01:20:45.000 –> 01:20:46.000

01:20:46.000 –> 01:21:09.000
So, but probably Jake’s. But oh, by the way, if you look over Jake’s right shoulder, that looks like Jake with some has been football quarterback by the name of Tom Brady, who Jake stocked at a technology conference in

01:21:09.000 –> 01:21:10.000
Yeah. That was, that was.

01:21:10.000 –> 01:21:11.000
Miami, and in any event, thank you all for for staying.

01:21:11.000 –> 01:21:26.000
We still have 50 here, call us if there are questions, but we really appreciate you joining us.

01:21:26.000 –> 01:21:35.000
Yeah, and we appreciate it, and we’ll be sending out the video link Powerpoint presentation will also be sending out as we’ve discussed.

01:21:35.000 –> 01:21:40.000
Ca, a a lot today we’ll be sending out the best practices.

01:21:40.000 –> 01:21:41.000
Public policy, manual as well as a Cai best practices maintenance.

01:21:41.000 –> 01:21:58.000
Guide, as well and we’ll also be answering all if we didn’t get to your question during this presentation, we’ll be sending over a a synopsis or answer to whatever you are.

01:21:58.000 –> 01:22:10.000
Questions or concerns were if they’re specific, I mean, obviously, maybe case by case, at least we had one that was very specific reach out to us, and we’ll be happy to help with that.

01:22:10.000 –> 01:22:17.000
And yeah, we can’t thank Mitch enough. It was an unbelievable performance today.

01:22:17.000 –> 01:22:34.000
Unbelievable presentation, we didn’t get any of the improv today, but for the next one, let’s let’s plan for a few minutes of standup comedy, which hopefully can provide some relief to the managers and board members that are always inundated

01:22:34.000 –> 01:22:35.000

01:22:35.000 –> 01:22:37.000
Alright, I’m taking the change of pace.

01:22:37.000 –> 01:22:53.000
In a few months. We just have match solely do his stand up materials, and where we have 42 people still on, which is great.

01:22:53.000 –> 01:23:09.000
Sorry for going over, but everything’s available. You’ll be hearing from us next week, and there’s information at the beginning of the slides, and when you get the slides on how to reach match.

01:23:09.000 –> 01:23:27.000
But he’s at the kip con saon.com k IP, C O, n.com, and I’m sure happy, happy, happy to try to help you out if he can thank you and have a great weekend.

01:23:27.000 –> 01:23:29.000
Thanks! Everybody! Take care!

01:23:29.000 –> 01:23:59.000
Thanks. Everyone. Thanks. Mitchell.


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