06.21.2024 | Webcasts & Podcasts

The Marcus Hour | June 21, 2024 | Ep. 16 | Handling Dangerous or Toxic Unit Owners (and Tenants/Residents) in Condominiums, HOAs and Co-ops

In this segment of the Marcus Hour, Allcock & Marcus members, Stephen Marcus, Jake Marcus, and Norm Orban, detail how Boards and Managers should deal with dangerous, disruptive, noxious, and toxic unit owners (or tenants/residents and even guests).  Based on recent events across our nation and jurisdictions A&M represents, we delve into best practices for handling owners that present a danger to the community at large while being sensitive to potentially dangerous individuals’ ownership rights.  The dangers can range from unit owners planning to concoct bombs in their units, to possessing high-powered firearms, to the elderly and senile that may cause dangers to themselves, and other forgetful owners who may leave boiling water on the stove, and even to alleged violent fighters in common areas (i.e. Kettle Brook Lofts matter involving a crowbar incident and documents not permitting noxious of offensive conduct).  We will also present suggestions as to document amendments and resolutions that might allow penalties beyond simply fining unit owners and the likelihood of future developments related to stripping an owner of voting rights, common area/amenity usage, and even eviction/foreclosure in extreme instances.”


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Norm Orban: Also.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Oh, well, you can say it cause people will populate in so.

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Norm Orban: And the only thing that I think is somewhat interesting, too, is the statute

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Norm Orban: like it’s clear in my mind. But when you read it. It’s not really clear that it actually means what we say. It means.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: 1 83, a.

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Norm Orban: Yeah, cause. It says that you’re entitled to exclusive possession to your unit, provided, however, that you must abide and like, I think that’s what it means. But yeah.

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Norm Orban: I I can see somebody else saying, Well.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Right.

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Stephen Marcus: Yeah, we, if we were taking the.

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Stephen Marcus: if we had the case, would be arguing

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Stephen Marcus: that, it’s

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Stephen Marcus: well, what else could it mean? It’s very clear if we’re on the association side. This is very clear that the Legislature had something in mind, for well, they wouldn’t have put in those extra words, but

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Stephen Marcus: we will see.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: So you gotta get things going.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Yep, absolutely. So we have people populating in entering through the front door

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: the zoom call and today we have a really exciting topic, a kind of

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: hot topic, as of late across the nation, not only in New England

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: as it relates to handling toxic, dangerous unit owners including, you know, handling the tenants, the residents, guests in condominiums, co-ops and hoas. And what do you gonna do when a a dangerous or a toxic unit owner is in your in your community association? And how are you gonna handle it?

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Again, you could tell we we were kind of chit chatting a bit about this topic right before people started walking in or or I guess, entering virtually in and we were just talking about no set of facts is gonna be the same. So again, that’s kind of a good segue into our program. The 16th version of the Marcus Hour featuring Steven, Marcus

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Jake, Marcus and our special guest today, someone at who is a law firm member at Allcock and Marcus Norm Orban Norm. Any any opening remarks.

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Norm Orban: No just excited to be here on my my 1st experience in the on the Marcus hour. And just kind of looking forward to what should be a

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Norm Orban: a fun. Webinar, I will say to the audience, I am stuck working from home with a 4 year old, so you may see a head pop in from time to time, but I think he’s pretty content in the next room right now.

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Stephen Marcus: Jake, do you wanna give a yeah

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Stephen Marcus: quick

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Stephen Marcus: pitch for

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Stephen Marcus: Cai.

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Stephen Marcus: I know it’s not a say AI program, but.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a that’s a good idea. So a pitch for Cai, which is community Associations Institute. That is the go to source for all things. Community associations, condo hoas, co-ops, whether unit owner, property manager, board member. It’s important to get involved with Cai as much as possible. We’ve been involved with them for for years. And it is a great organization to

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: kind of, you know. Do educational things like this get the right resources. All the above, and kinda just be able to. really get a a group effort, and and and if there’s a problem at your association. It’s likely that someone has dealt with something similar hopefully.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: but if you need any any resources, Cai has plenty of resources to help you out there. So Cai, new Cai, New England, Claudette Carini is the is the chair. There’s there’s branches throughout the nation where members of as as our firm is located in

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: numerous States, New Hampshire, Maine, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, and Florida. We are also members of Cai, Florida. Which you know, I may from time to time mentioned Florida. I’m licensed in Florida and Massachusetts. There’s a lot of things that relate to how Florida handles things that may come up during the program. The reason that’s important is because a lot that happens in Florida.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Florida ends up

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: either making its way to New England States, or is good guidance or best practices for other States. So just something to note. Don’t you know? Don’t brush it off. It could be important even if it’s just best practices or guidance. And again, that’s something. This is, this is a informational educational webinar. It’s not to be construed as legal advice. Every set of facts is different.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: If you have specific questions, go to your attorney and and that could be us. It could be all clock, and Marcus A. A full service law firm law firm that represents

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: community associations in New England, States, Massachusetts, Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Florida.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Well, Florida is not a New England State, but we consider that New England South and we are happy to help with any questions that may come up so today again we have Norm myself, Stephen. Steven, anything you wanna add before we get started.

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Stephen Marcus: I was just gonna say for a

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Stephen Marcus: a little little more on. Say, AI for a yeah.

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Stephen Marcus: the New England chap is located in Wellesley. Maybe Claudette Claudette, our executive director, who does wonderful job running this nonprofit. her email addresses. C. Carini, CCAR, INI, at CAIN e dot.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Chat.

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Stephen Marcus: Okay, perfect.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: CAIN e.com.

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Stephen Marcus: Org.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Org. Okay.

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Stephen Marcus: Yeah, and shaking out also, despite Jake’s disclaimer that we’re not giving specific legal advice

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Stephen Marcus: for anybody, and it shouldn’t be construed that we are because we need much more facts and information, and to read you documents for a particular case.

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Stephen Marcus: He doesn’t mean that you can’t put questions into the QA. Or chat

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Stephen Marcus: and if we will either to try to answer them during this webinar, or

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Stephen Marcus: Monday or Tuesday next week you’ll get the Powerpoint and a copy of the video or a link to the video. But we also try to respond to all questions that were asked somewhere asked before the the webinar so we try to respond to all of them. So if people didn’t sign up, anybody who registered sees it, or if anybody has to sign up early for those questions that came in before

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Stephen Marcus: before today.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: So let me tell you, we’re gonna get to the program. Now, it’s a very important topic. It’s a can be alarming topic. You can feel, you know, a little bit what’s your responsibility? As far as you know, a board Member property manager

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: as a unit, as a as a fellow unit owner. How do you deal with the toxic or noxious or obstructive unit owners? Now, I I heard a stat recently, or you know, everyone says I heard a stat, it’s probably made up. 90% of stats are made up. But I think the stat was like 95% of complaints are gonna come from 5 to 10 of unit owners. And what that’s what that kind of means is that

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: the loud, the loud unit owners are going to be the ones that

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: complain. The most, you know, bring up the most issues and might be the most toxic. That’s not to make a generalization, but every set of faxes differently. And and and there could be issues where it could just be a a, an annoying unit owner. It could be a unit owner who is actually dangerous. And we’re gonna hit on every topic. Today, we’re gonna talk about the unit owners who provide criticism to everything a board does everything a manager does.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: We’re going to talk about the A. A recent cases that we mentioned, where there is violence in an association in the common areas.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: How do you handle that? What’s your responsibility? We’re gonna talk about? What about in a unit? If someone’s you know, concocting a bomb or or clicking meth in their unit.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: What’s what are you gonna do there? And you know that’s there. That’s their exclusive space, according to your governing documents, most likely. But what can you do? Elderly and senile unit owners, or or maybe mental, incapacitated unit owners someone who leaves a a boiling hot water on the stove. What are you gonna do there? So we’ll get to all of that. I’m gonna start sharing my screen.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: so we can kind of get into it.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: And

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: so there’s us

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: and let me start the slideshow.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: So handling dangerous or toxic unit owners and tenants or residents and condominiums, Hois and co-ops. Recent matters and examples. So we’re we’re gonna kind of get into

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: as I just mentioned. Unit owners with drugs are making bombs and units fights and flagrant behavior in common areas. Elderly and senile unit owners, overly critical or disruptive unit owners. That’s that’s basically the ones who complain about every single thing that the board does. Now.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: I’m gonna I’m gonna go right to norm.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: let’s let’s start with the most common example.

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Norm Orban: Yeah, I.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Chill is.

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Norm Orban: Sorry.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Let’s start. Let’s start with the most most common example, which is, someone who complains a lot.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: What? What? What should a board do in examples where, you know, there’s a unit owner who is just making incessant complaints about everything a board does complaining about everything, making threats, legal threats. just basically trying to take down the board in any way possible. What are what are the remedies, or what are ways that a board can handle. That type of unit owner.

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Norm Orban: So this is one of the harder scenarios, because there’s

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Norm Orban: that my answer isn’t going to be one that I think is is well received because there’s not a lot.

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Norm Orban: Unfortunately, there’s a case that we’d love to overturn, where it gives a a homeowner or says that there’s

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Norm Orban: 1st Amendment rights and association. So

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Norm Orban: owners are allowed to complain, they’re allowed to do things. And so in order to get around it, you need to try to be a little creative, and try to do what you can do to stifle your normal, regular, everyday complaints or incessant behavior. And one thing.

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Norm Orban: one thing that

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Stephen Marcus: Jake, can you? Turn up norms for? Okay, norm, can you turn up here.

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Norm Orban: I can try. This might be the 1st time I’ve ever heard something where somebody

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Norm Orban: and I’m not loud enough.

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Stephen Marcus: Well, that sounds better.

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Stephen Marcus: but I don’t know what you did, so.

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Norm Orban: Moved a little closer

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Norm Orban: and

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Norm Orban: so hopefully that works.

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Stephen Marcus: It seems better.

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Norm Orban: Okay.

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Norm Orban: So anyways.

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Norm Orban: what I was saying is, I hope everybody can hear me now is it’s 1 of the more difficult situations one can run into, because

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Norm Orban: there really isn’t a good answer, and like what I was just saying is, there is a case where it says owners have a 1st amendment, right? Meaning that they’re allowed to complain. We can’t stifle their ability to speech

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Norm Orban: and bring up these issues. However, what we’ve tried to do is a couple of things.

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Norm Orban: Yes, they’re allowed to speak. They’re allowed to talk, but they’re not allowed to interfere with the boards

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Norm Orban: business relations. So if they’re doing, if they’re taking the next step further and trying to communicate or dissuade your contractors, employees, agents, then you can get a little bit more involved by way of a cease and desist, and possibly a court order seeking to stop this particular type of conduct.

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Norm Orban: However, if it’s not that they’re just overloading the board, the property manager. Everybody else is is what we tried to do to sort of at least stifle the behavior and make it better for the Board to say, look.

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Norm Orban: we can’t stop you from communicating. But just because you communicate with us doesn’t mean we have to respond to you.

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Norm Orban: So what we’ve we’ve effectively done is said, Hey.

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Norm Orban: you? You’re allowed to send these emails. You’re allowed to communicate with people. But

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Norm Orban: no one’s going to respond to you. You need to send everything to the counselor, or whomever that person will then compile a list of your questions, and we’ll get back to you every 4 months every 3 months at a certain time period, to try to take away this instant gratification and try to at least slow it down, because, unfortunately, based on the decision I was referencing. You can’t completely stop the behavior as long as it’s normal, ordinary behavior.

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Stephen Marcus: So. So no, no, I’m I would take that you that you’re trying to

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Stephen Marcus: distinguish because it gets tricky. We have to

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Stephen Marcus: distinguish

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Stephen Marcus: the emergency

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Stephen Marcus: from the why didn’t you get more bids? I don’t like this. if it’s an emergency. Well, if the buildings on fire you call 9 1 1 you might call the 24 h emergency hotline. If it truly is an emergency. But if it’s just, I don’t like that. The board did this, I think they should do this. I think what I’m suggesting is that if the board meets every month or every quarter

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Stephen Marcus: that you just keep responding to the owner. Thank you for your email. The the Board will discuss this, that they are next regularly scheduled meeting.

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Stephen Marcus: and it’s sort of puts the brakes

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Stephen Marcus: on the unit owner, so that it’s not

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Stephen Marcus: 5 HA day or 10 HA day that the association has to deal with a particular particular owner, because that could make things very non-cost effective, make the management company want to increase their fees dramatically and make, while the board members want to resign.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Yeah.

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Norm Orban: And you wouldn’t want to stifle any ability. Obviously, on the 9 1, 1 or emergent situations. But it’s even hit the point perfectly. There.

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Stephen Marcus: Can you? Can you get closer to the mic.

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Norm Orban: Sorry.

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Stephen Marcus: Okay. Thanks.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Yeah, and feel free to share questions. If you have specific questions in the chat or QA. And yeah, that I I think that’s something that I mean, we’re dealing with on a a few cases. This is the most common one. And and usually yeah, I I mean worse, you know you. You hope that you can kind of at least curb the the incessant behavior and and kind of fear to other unit owners and board

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: members. I mean, being a board member is a very thankless position. Being a property manager is a very thankless position.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: And it’s hard to get volunteer board members to run. It makes it even harder

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: when you have unit owners who are just making your every single day painful. So yeah, we we, if it comes down to it, usually a cease and assist is is what we kind of is a good way to filter it out, and that’s where we’ll get we’ll get a lot of questions from the the unit owner.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: and kind of filtered out the relevant ones to the board. You know, and and sometimes that may be. We’ll be getting

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: several emails

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: calls whatever a day and we’ll make sure to filter out the good ones or the relevant ones, and.

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Stephen Marcus: Let. Let let me answer question that was just

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Stephen Marcus: put in the chat. Should the meaning complain, disrupting owners be allowed to attend a board meeting to seek that, and maybe it resolve. I’m gonna say that there’s probably no legitimate way other than

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Stephen Marcus: if the behavior at past meetings has been to the point of being dangerous. So the police haven’t to be called in. There’s probably no no basis for keeping unit owners generally from attending board meetings. But just because somebody asked you meet a question at an annual meeting of owners

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Stephen Marcus: or even at an open. The the open part of a board meeting maybe have open discussion for 30 min for questions

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Stephen Marcus: doesn’t mean that you can’t answer.

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Stephen Marcus: We will get back to you. We’ll discuss that at a next board meeting and get back to you at that. With that. So some of the issues are complicated and we’re going back to Norm’s idea about that instant gratification isn’t the standard. It’s responding within a reasonable time, and all that. So if somebody asked question is perfectly fine to say thank you for your comment.

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Stephen Marcus: The Board will be, management will be discussing that at the at at its next regularly scheduled meeting and period. Next question

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Stephen Marcus: take, you want to move on to

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Stephen Marcus: beyond the difficult, to.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Yeah.

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Stephen Marcus: And folks.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Yeah. So now, now, let’s kinda discuss a a little bit, you know. W. We’ll we’ll get into a a actual. Let’s just get right to one of the recent cases that is currently on appeal

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: a a kettle brook lofts condominium case involving a crowbar in the common areas, a fight with a crowbar and whoops. And basically, what happened here is the rules and regulations have verbiage that states whatever means necessary.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: What are some measures that can be taken? And this is this is a pending case. So we don’t want to provide or it’s on a Po, I should say and so we don’t want to provide.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: you know, too much legal conclusions as to this, but it is a good kind of case to use as a parameter for what you kind of can do, as far as handling either violence or or dangerous activity in the common areas of a condominium. So I’ll I’ll I’m gonna

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: push it over to my panelist.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: wh! What are your thoughts on one? The the language of the rules and regulations here, which is, is pretty broad. But also the the fight. W. Obviously, if it’s a 1 off fight, there’s not much a a board, or really any unit owner or security could do to stop a fight.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: If it’s someone that has caused

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: fights back like there, there’s been constant fights. It’s gonna be a little different. So so what are your thoughts on those? Those are the 2 main points of this case.

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Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: what are your thoughts to that, and either one of you can take this norm, or or Stephen.

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Stephen Marcus: Let me start if I if I may. The the there’s again we were talked about. We’re not giving specific legal advice on this, because

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Stephen Marcus: to get deep into the facts we don’t know all the facts with this case. We know that the lower court did not find a basis for excluding the owner from from possession of the unit. But it runs the spectrum from it was allegedly attacked by a crowbar.

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Stephen Marcus: I think I read that there was the the the penalty from the from the courts was 3 years probation but it gets into questions such as.

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Stephen Marcus: Was it just 2 owners who didn’t get along, or 2 residents who didn’t get along? And the answer was for the attacks owner to get a restraining order or was it that

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Stephen Marcus: this unit owner was lying in wait with a crowbar? For anybody who’s crazy world these days for anybody who stepped out of their the unit, so that it was a true danger to to to others. the i, the excluding a unit owner from

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Stephen Marcus: possession of it. His or her unit is an extraordinary remedy, so I think the courts are reluctant to take that drastic a remedy

00:20:34.780 –> 00:21:02.469
Stephen Marcus: except in the right case. So they’re, gonna I think, bend over backwards to say, Gee, we’re not going to exclude somebody from the from occupying the home, even though. Section 4, of chapter 183, a. Says that you’re only entitled to possession of the unit subject to compliance with the documents. The court went out of its way and said, well.

00:21:02.470 –> 00:21:25.139
Stephen Marcus: the language. There was language about nauseous or offensive behavior, and they went to def the dictionary definition and say, well, this didn’t really happen there, and sort of blew over whatever means necessary. I guess the ideal solution that I’d like boards, the or the managers to start thinking about in attorneys

00:21:25.140 –> 00:21:31.379
Stephen Marcus: is putting in a an amendment to the documents that deals with

00:21:31.380 –> 00:21:55.520
Stephen Marcus: what? Typically over the last 40 something years has been left out of kind of minimum documents, which is that for appropriate reason, shown that a court, that a board may go into into court and seek to have a owner. E excluded from the premises sub obviously subject to the right facts of there being a danger to

00:21:55.854 –> 00:22:15.589
Stephen Marcus: other other residents etc. So I think somewhere along the way, maybe on. And I’m hoping on the appeal on Kettlebrook. I’m hoping that the court says, well, they say, Yeah, in this case we find it, or whether they say in some case somebody’s gonna step over the line, and it will be the appropriate remedy.

00:22:15.750 –> 00:22:30.440
Stephen Marcus: That’s my hope. But I think that a amendment to the Master Bylaws was something specific as to the criminal act dangers, etc. May be the ideal solution. What do you think done.

00:22:30.840 –> 00:22:46.649
Norm Orban: Yeah, I I overall. I I tend to agree with that. And and I think you know, we were talking about this a little bit earlier before we started the call, and that the the portion of 183 a. That Stephen. Just references. I read it, and I think the reasonable interpretation says possession is subject to the the rules. But I

00:22:47.070 –> 00:22:52.860
Norm Orban: it’s not perfectly written that way. I think there’s only one outcome, but I can see a judge trying to do whatever they can

00:22:53.150 –> 00:22:55.799
Norm Orban: to not want to go that far, because

00:22:55.890 –> 00:23:03.089
Norm Orban: this isn’t a a lease situation. It’s not an apartment. It’s someone’s private home. So I think the level is just going to be.

00:23:03.160 –> 00:23:29.799
Norm Orban: It has to be so high, and I think if it’s well defined in the docs, you get a better shot to say, Well, yes, your honor, this is an extreme remedy. However, this person purchased this condominium, knowing that he was buying into certain rules and restrictions. And one of these rules were, if you do, XY or Z, you’re subject to being removed. And you know, yeah, you can rent the place out, you can still own the unit, but you can’t physically live there. I think it would make it cleaner.

00:23:29.800 –> 00:23:41.789
Norm Orban: and the one thing I will say is about these types of situations, and whether it be a fight with a crowbar, whether it be. You know, I’ve had people where we’ve had a unit owner threatened to. He was going to rape and kill multiple people and

00:23:42.170 –> 00:24:11.529
Norm Orban: things of these extreme natures where, no matter what you should, I would suggest you do as a board, under the circumstances is, you try to get the order. You try to get the order removing him, and you try to get another order, saying that in the alternative that he’s got to cease and desist the conduct at least that way. You’ve done 2 things, one, if they violate the second part of the order, which is a cease and desist, you have a better chance. I would suggest, on a complaint, for contempt, to go back and then get an order vacating 2.

00:24:11.530 –> 00:24:22.340
Norm Orban: God forbid! You’re in a scenario where you go to court. You have this owner who’s making these threats, you attempt to do it. The judge denies it, and then he actually falls through with the threats.

00:24:22.650 –> 00:24:29.149
Norm Orban: Not that you ever want that to happen, at least the border of that set of circumstances from a liability perspective. You did all you could do.

00:24:29.860 –> 00:24:30.190
Stephen Marcus: He’s.

00:24:30.190 –> 00:24:36.450
Norm Orban: Try to get the person out. The judge is the one who who stood in your way, and now he or she is going to have to deal with the consequences of their own denial.

00:24:36.450 –> 00:24:42.209
Stephen Marcus: Yeah, I think I think that’s a great point that the somebody

00:24:42.380 –> 00:24:59.249
Stephen Marcus: God forbid it gets killed, or whatever whatever and the person who suffered the damages sues the board and the manager and everybody else. The answer is, gonna be.

00:24:59.660 –> 00:25:05.399
Stephen Marcus: Hey, guys, we we went to court. We attempted to get an injunction.

00:25:05.550 –> 00:25:07.400
Stephen Marcus: The judge.

00:25:08.270 –> 00:25:11.849
Stephen Marcus: for whatever reason, didn’t didn’t award it.

00:25:12.321 –> 00:25:37.698
Stephen Marcus: We took our reasonable steps to deal with this issue, and the judicial system said that the owner was not gonna be excluded from the property. I gotta if there’s 1 more argument that you put into the I guess, into the arrows of the quiver, whatever the expression is.

00:25:38.560 –> 00:25:40.289
Stephen Marcus: in landlord tenant law.

00:25:40.730 –> 00:25:45.580
Stephen Marcus: there’s a provision that says so. It’s very difficult to evict a tenant

00:25:45.620 –> 00:25:48.460
Stephen Marcus: and summary process, so that it’s just

00:25:48.640 –> 00:25:53.570
Stephen Marcus: fully in favor of the unit of the tenant in Massachusetts.

00:25:53.720 –> 00:25:55.799
Stephen Marcus: and has been for years.

00:25:55.820 –> 00:26:15.049
Stephen Marcus: But there’s a provision that says versus the long process of summary process, which is a long process, that he can’t do it without a court order to get rid of a tenant. But there is a provision that said, if there are drugs, gambling, or prostitution.

00:26:15.160 –> 00:26:23.500
Stephen Marcus: that those are immediate reasons for a shortened process to get rid of the tenant.

00:26:23.710 –> 00:26:31.710
Stephen Marcus: and I guess my argument and interested norms thoughts would be, why not raise with the court

00:26:31.800 –> 00:26:35.029
Stephen Marcus: that, your honor, we have?

00:26:35.140 –> 00:26:37.129
Stephen Marcus: If this were a tenant.

00:26:37.620 –> 00:26:44.370
Stephen Marcus: the conduct. If the person is selling drugs involved prostitution or gambling.

00:26:44.780 –> 00:26:50.420
Stephen Marcus: there’d be like an almost immediate ability to get the person out.

00:26:50.790 –> 00:26:52.550
Stephen Marcus: why should

00:26:52.700 –> 00:26:54.780
Stephen Marcus: the remedy be less

00:26:54.860 –> 00:27:02.889
Stephen Marcus: just because it’s a unit owner who’s involved in those in those illegal activities? No.

00:27:03.130 –> 00:27:27.770
Norm Orban: Yeah. And I think that’s 1 of the better arguments that you could make on the side, you know in the end, though I do think there’s going to be a look at well, in the end, this isn’t a tenant. This is the owner, so I think there is going to be a higher standard typically set forth. I think it’s the closest thing you can compare to. And I think in the landlord tenant situation you’re almost buying into that type of an agreement. They see it more. Whether or not it should or shouldn’t be the case. I think that’s how

00:27:27.840 –> 00:27:50.919
Norm Orban: it seems, at least to me that the the courts are interpreting it. But I I think that is a way to try to maybe swing the argument more. Maybe the best place to bring these types of cases is in Housing court and not superior court, because in Housing court they’re more comfortable or used to the removal or evicting of tenants. And you know there is that argument that we can say, really, it’s it’s it’s no different that the threat.

00:27:50.920 –> 00:27:51.340
Stephen Marcus: Yeah.

00:27:51.340 –> 00:27:52.950
Norm Orban: Here of the drug use

00:27:52.980 –> 00:27:58.480
Norm Orban: is there, and it or the bad conduct is there just like it is if the actual owner is doing it.

00:27:58.750 –> 00:28:27.550
Stephen Marcus: And and I don’t think the the housing court covers every jurisdiction. But but there’s housing, put in Boston. There’s a southeast region Housing Court, but all the hearing landlord tenant cases every day. So they’re gonna be totally familiar with, the exception as to drugs or or prostitution, and might make the the connection

00:28:27.988 –> 00:28:35.529
Stephen Marcus: a little bit Parker. So that may be that’d be that may be worth pursuing.

00:28:37.230 –> 00:28:45.790
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Great. And so something I want to kind of touch on because we’re we’re we’re we’re kind of skating around. It is

00:28:45.840 –> 00:29:05.109
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: what is, you know. As as a board member property manager, you’re not expected to be a police officer. You’re not expected to be a security force what are. So. So we we wanna get into another case called the field case. And this was a double homicide

00:29:05.110 –> 00:29:34.130
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: case in South Boston. That involved a an instance where 2 doctors lived in a penthouse in South Boston, and a a another person was able to get access to the penthouse floor and get into the units and and commit a double homicide. Now, in that case there was a decent amount of foreseeability

00:29:34.461 –> 00:29:49.389
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: reasonable foreseeability, and and, as you can see here, boards and managers, duty of care. What what is the duty of care? If there’s a reasonable foreseeability as to the issue. Then that is kind of an instance where you’ll have to act.

00:29:49.390 –> 00:30:14.370
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: There’s ways to get proper security in place. We did do a a Marcus hour on premises, security? And we have done, or we have discussed kind of ways to. you know, the the police are there for a reason. If you need to make a police report, it’s good to have that documented as well in extreme instances. So again, let’s kind of touch

00:30:14.370 –> 00:30:17.370
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: on that a little bit as far as

00:30:17.500 –> 00:30:29.262
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: one. What can you do? As far as implementing the proper security? I mean that we could have a whole again, we could have a whole webinar on just implementing proper security.

00:30:29.630 –> 00:30:55.869
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: but one. What can you do to make sure you have the proper security and and measures in place. And 2 what are your duties, or or what should you be doing? You? You’re not gonna be able to monitor every single thing that happens in association. That’s just that. That’s that wouldn’t be possible. And I wanna bring up one more case surf side. The Champlain towers collapse. Actually.

00:30:55.870 –> 00:31:05.230
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: it kind of ties in here because it involved a the. The front desk has a state of the art security system. And

00:31:05.250 –> 00:31:31.386
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: the backdrop of that is, there was a 1.2 billion dollar settlement in that case. In the instance where 98 people unfortunately died in a due to issues with the with the building. And in that case there was a 1.2 billion dollar settlement. Half of the settlement was paid out by the Security Company or the Security Company’s insurance insurer

00:31:31.760 –> 00:31:52.879
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: and in that case the Security Company was found to be on the hook, because there was a state of the art button that they could have pressed that would have allowed 7 min for people to evacuate and it was not pressed. So again. Th, that’s something where it’s kind of having the right security in place. But but let’s get into kind of what you can do as far as

00:31:53.000 –> 00:32:01.849
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: preventative measures, not not just in the governing documents, but you know, as far as taking action when you see something happening.

00:32:02.030 –> 00:32:06.020
Stephen Marcus: And if I can, if I can stick on this slide for a second.

00:32:06.478 –> 00:32:08.779
Stephen Marcus: One of the things that will help.

00:32:09.400 –> 00:32:25.250
Stephen Marcus: possibly in a number of these cases especially in the field. Double homicide is. There are security risk consultants.

00:32:25.620 –> 00:32:44.070
Stephen Marcus: And again, the same idea as a court, not issuing a an injunction against a dangerous unit owner. You ship the liability. If you bring in a cause, you’re not security experts as Volunteer Board members but if you bring in a security risk manager

00:32:44.419 –> 00:33:05.069
Stephen Marcus: and have them go through your procedures in the field case, people were getting into the garage whenever it opened like kids and damaging like very expensive cars. And then they were able to get into the building and then up to the steps to the penthouse. Even though the penthouse owners, the 2 engaged surgeons had.

00:33:05.160 –> 00:33:14.019
Stephen Marcus: They’re their elevator, Bob, only they’re the only ones who get to the bare floor. But they’re finding people in the hallways, and it was because

00:33:14.040 –> 00:33:25.430
Stephen Marcus: the Stairwell doors were open and they complained several times about people being there and security concerns.

00:33:25.430 –> 00:33:48.430
Stephen Marcus: and it was ignored. So that didn’t happen in that case. But a security risk manager may be able to give some one give you some good ideas to bolster your procedures. But 2, it ships the liability. If you follow those recommendations to what the person says, no.

00:33:49.080 –> 00:33:51.690
Norm Orban: Yeah. And I think you know, Fields, it was a little

00:33:51.740 –> 00:34:21.589
Norm Orban: more unique, in a way, than some other condos. In that. There was the specifics in the management contract and in the governing documents which had some security requirements and then some duty to do that which aren’t in a lot of documents, and I think what Stephen pointed out there was good, not only with respect to the security aspect of it, and looking for some outside source to really tell you what it is, but also Field specifically dealt with a known issue with existing elements. So I think

00:34:21.600 –> 00:34:24.920
Norm Orban: one of the takeaways is, if you know there’s something wrong

00:34:25.159 –> 00:34:38.270
Norm Orban: with your current setup that’s allowing 3rd parties to enter the building or allowing violence to to occur or other crimes. It’s time to take action. You know the the question about the reasonable foreseeability

00:34:38.350 –> 00:34:49.340
Norm Orban: is a little different in that. Most of the cases on it are involving landlord tenants or house parties where it’s like, well, you let this party happen. You knew in the past when it’s happened.

00:34:49.510 –> 00:35:03.579
Norm Orban: Such and such conduct has happened. So you knew if you did it again in the future it could happen again, and the line becomes, where is the line? Some courts have said, well, drug use at the property is not enough to know that a violent act would happen. You need previous violent acts to happen.

00:35:03.620 –> 00:35:10.669
Norm Orban: It’s an interesting aspect right now, and I know there’s some questions like, in certain cases, where do you need to add elements

00:35:10.970 –> 00:35:13.690
Norm Orban: to make sure the security is

00:35:13.970 –> 00:35:16.970
Norm Orban: appropriate, and and to prevent from 3rd parties, and and

00:35:17.000 –> 00:35:25.089
Norm Orban: I don’t know that that’s the case. But I think the key takeaways are. You need to know what your issues are? You need to make sure that your existing

00:35:25.180 –> 00:35:28.200
Norm Orban: elements are functioning as they should be.

00:35:28.260 –> 00:35:35.590
Norm Orban: and that they’re they’re working appropriately. And there’s sort of a I wouldn’t call it a contrasting case, but I think it’s an interesting case out of out of Georgia.

00:35:35.720 –> 00:35:39.280
Norm Orban: where it was a gated community. The gate was broken.

00:35:39.310 –> 00:35:46.379
Norm Orban: Somebody used took advantage of the broken gate to get on the property, that they weren’t allowed to be there, and they shot somebody.

00:35:46.550 –> 00:36:06.779
Norm Orban: and the person they shot sued the Association. The court ultimately said, well, look in these documents. There is no duty to provide security for one and 2. The broken gate. The Board knew about it, and was acting to fix it as soon as possible. And while this Georgia case doesn’t necessarily have any application up here, I think it gives you a good idea that if you know of a defect

00:36:06.940 –> 00:36:19.059
Norm Orban: and you take advantage of it, and you’re trying to fix it as long as you’re doing it as reasonable and as fast as possible. You’re probably putting yourself, at least in the best case that you can be under the circumstances.

00:36:19.280 –> 00:36:22.539
Stephen Marcus: And and and the the one

00:36:22.580 –> 00:36:26.639
Stephen Marcus: helpful hint that may help that may not, but it goes back.

00:36:27.100 –> 00:36:30.109
Stephen Marcus: Probably 30 or 40 years is

00:36:30.260 –> 00:36:37.720
Stephen Marcus: when search the Condominium started to be much more prevalent in Massachusetts

00:36:38.330 –> 00:36:39.880
Stephen Marcus: was

00:36:39.920 –> 00:36:42.219
Stephen Marcus: that.

00:36:42.320 –> 00:37:00.189
Stephen Marcus: people would have security guys and they’d be advertising. We have security guides, and even though it may not seem significant the advice back then, and still is, well. Gee! Are these people security guides? Or they just concierge

00:37:00.210 –> 00:37:11.330
Stephen Marcus: because security guards puts the level of expectations and duty to a higher level. So a long time rule is

00:37:12.643 –> 00:37:30.109
Stephen Marcus: if it looks if it looks like security, and whatever maybe doesn’t matter what you call it. But instead, but in a lot of cases, we we just told people stay away from saying security and have concierge service, that maybe it helps a tiny.

00:37:30.230 –> 00:37:34.969
Stephen Marcus: tiny bit. Do you want to go into the other slide with the remedies, Jake.

00:37:35.400 –> 00:37:38.220
Stephen Marcus: but I don’t want to talk about tech point for a second.

00:37:38.960 –> 00:37:40.359
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: We can. That’s our.

00:37:40.360 –> 00:37:42.739
Stephen Marcus: Is the one I think. Tech point is the one.

00:37:42.920 –> 00:37:44.060
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: And Cockney bombs.

00:37:44.060 –> 00:37:55.760
Stephen Marcus: Well, the the in Beverly mass was 1 1 case with with the bombs where, I think it may have crossed the line, but.

00:37:55.900 –> 00:38:17.709
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: So let’s let’s let’s before we get into that. And that’s that’s a good segue, because I think that’s the next kind of sub segment of this that we can discuss is not only tuck point, then we’ll get into the background of it, but basically it’s someone was making bombs in their unit or concocting bombs in their unit. I don’t know the difference. What’s the difference, Stephen?

00:38:18.870 –> 00:38:23.980
Stephen Marcus: I don’t know what concocting bombs is. I think of concocting as like making a cocktail.

00:38:23.980 –> 00:38:25.086
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Oh, okay.

00:38:25.640 –> 00:38:27.720
Stephen Marcus: This isn’t this isn’t legal advice.

00:38:28.420 –> 00:38:28.819
Stephen Marcus: Give me a.

00:38:28.820 –> 00:38:30.579
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: And don’t Google don’t Google, it.

00:38:30.580 –> 00:38:50.689
Stephen Marcus: I I thought you used to. The word concocting was where was that? And yeah, other than working for you and you were a wonderful boss. I’ve also heard that you’re related to me, so I can say why, using a stupid word like concocting.

00:38:52.620 –> 00:38:53.609
Stephen Marcus: But anyway.

00:38:53.610 –> 00:39:14.070
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Anyways so top point they were concocting or making, I guess, is the proper word bombs in a unit WI mean? That’s definitely a danger that’s obviously an issue. What do you do there, though? What do you do with that? What do you do with a unit owner who’s making drugs in the unit. We did get an interesting question, a good question

00:39:14.517 –> 00:39:26.160
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: as to civil rights, basically of unit owners, and the right to privacy. What about the or even, you know, high, fat, high.

00:39:26.250 –> 00:39:41.393
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: high fire, high high powered rifles or firearms? Wh. I mean you if you have a right to carry? Then yeah, what? What’s what’s the what’s your? What does the unit, or what’s the board’s right to kind of preclude that from happening.

00:39:41.730 –> 00:39:45.763
Stephen Marcus: Can can I answer that? Because that came in a week ago?

00:39:46.100 –> 00:39:46.530
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Yes, there!

00:39:46.850 –> 00:39:58.720
Stephen Marcus: By a Cpa. Who’s who might be on the call? There’s a big difference between and and what do we have those Dunk bombs, or whatever what was the recent Supreme Court case.

00:39:59.100 –> 00:40:05.270
Stephen Marcus: But but but basically for there’s a difference between a right to carry

00:40:05.400 –> 00:40:28.559
Stephen Marcus: and so let’s say that carrying a gun what the permit is legal. That does not not mean that you could go out with a gun or rifle and stayed outside the building and threaten residents as they walk by. That you gonna that you’re gonna shoot them.

00:40:28.975 –> 00:40:56.820
Stephen Marcus: That, the legal activity becomes illegal once you take the step of assaulting somebody so. And I think we’re going totally off track. If we go into the debate about assault rifles, and this recent Us. Supreme Court case, which which clearly said that machine guns are are not legal and the Feds in the States have bounced back and forth on assault

00:40:56.820 –> 00:41:04.000
Stephen Marcus: rifles. But it’s not the question of the that that distracts the issue.

00:41:05.006 –> 00:41:26.409
Stephen Marcus: It’s it’s not the question of the somebody having a permit for a gun or a second amendment rights the, even though the Federal Government has said no machine gun. So with no problem with second amendment rights. The real issue is the improper use

00:41:26.410 –> 00:41:40.809
Stephen Marcus: of the gun. In other words, nobody would know that there was a assault rifle on somebody’s home. The issue would only come up if the person used it to attack owners once you attack owners or residents.

00:41:41.163 –> 00:42:01.650
Stephen Marcus: I, I think, is where you’ve crossed the line, even though it might be a legal activity. So I just wanna I don’t think it’s a second amendment issue. It’s it’s a question of not the gun being legal or not legal. It’s the unit the unit owner engaging in criminal acts with that legal.

00:42:01.650 –> 00:42:03.260
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Yeah, so, so, yeah, like.

00:42:03.260 –> 00:42:08.890
Norm Orban: Exactly. I can give you a good example of that. That, take even takes it away from the second Amendment is, I had a case. A few years ago

00:42:08.960 –> 00:42:21.480
Norm Orban: we had an owner with the bow and arrow, and no one cared about the bow and arrow. It’s not even, you know it’s not. There’s no real debate about possession of a bow and arrow. The problem was, he kept pulling out the bow and arrow and aiming it at people he didn’t like at the Association.

00:42:22.190 –> 00:42:49.079
Norm Orban: There’s your example, I think, right there, and we got it. We brought in, got a court order. He was a tenant, and he was ultimately removed from from the building. But there’s the line. I don’t think anybody would have a problem of you owning your simple bow and arrow. But when you started aiming at other people, and the common area is that turned into a real problem whether or not he ever intended to, or accidentally or accidentally let it fly. That’s the problem here. It’s not the possession. It’s the. It’s the user.

00:42:49.080 –> 00:42:53.319
Stephen Marcus: And and my suggestion to to cut the discussion

00:42:53.400 –> 00:43:21.760
Stephen Marcus: short on a flurry of second amendment questions is, if the person posting this as anonymous wants to call me and discuss for 10 h second amendment. And what kind of guns and rifles is the Government allowed to prohibit my cell phone number is 781-41-3526.

00:43:21.760 –> 00:43:44.029
Stephen Marcus: But I think we’re taking people off the course of what this program is about if we start getting into a second amendment issue. This isn’t civil liberties issue. This is somebody who’s using a gun to hurt people. And I I don’t think we should spend another minute on it, but I’ll spend hours with the person who posted the question. If they want.

00:43:44.740 –> 00:44:02.189
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Excellent but I guess that’s a good segue. Alright. So I mean i i i’ve also dealt with an issue where a a landlord had a tenant who had a firearm his clearly there was something off, because the the person ended up.

00:44:02.781 –> 00:44:30.999
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: He’s according to police records the his dog told him that the whole building apartment complex was out to get him and he needed to shoot through every wall in his building. He did. Luckily no one was injured but a very scary incident, as you can imagine. Now, let’s that’s that’s an extreme. Again, we’re not gonna get into the the civil rights and and Second amendment rights. But

00:44:31.000 –> 00:44:37.223
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: what about a elderly or senile unit owner, or what about someone making drugs or or bombs.

00:44:37.590 –> 00:44:39.614
Stephen Marcus: Just to go back for a second was the

00:44:40.020 –> 00:44:42.749
Stephen Marcus: Was the dog charged with anything? In that case.

00:44:43.160 –> 00:44:47.763
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: I think the dog actually yeah, it was. It was Scooby doo, and he had.

00:44:48.070 –> 00:44:48.550
Stephen Marcus: Okay.

00:44:48.550 –> 00:44:49.100
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Hey!

00:44:49.100 –> 00:44:53.239
Stephen Marcus: Yeah, again. Yeah, carry carry on you. You’ll go into another topic.

00:44:53.586 –> 00:45:06.419
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: And I wish I had Digby today, and so elderly or senile, or or or unit owners who are a a harm to themselves potentially. What do you do in those instances.

00:45:06.420 –> 00:45:09.819
Stephen Marcus: So. So I had that case back with that

00:45:10.110 –> 00:45:15.940
Stephen Marcus: somebody who then became a housing court judge, and it was based on a persistent but

00:45:16.110 –> 00:45:17.699
Stephen Marcus: very, very bright

00:45:17.780 –> 00:45:47.199
Stephen Marcus: property manager by the name of Robin Hanson who was also one of the founders of the New England chapter of Cai, and he would do one property at a time. So one of his properties was a very expensive high rise on Beacon Street in Boston, and the building was gas fired, and Mr. And Mrs. Smith

00:45:47.250 –> 00:45:57.499
Stephen Marcus: would, who are elderly and say dial and dementia would put their t on and forget that it was on the

00:45:58.184 –> 00:46:07.870
Stephen Marcus: stove, and it would set off the alarms throughout the whole building. My department would come, and and all that.

00:46:08.370 –> 00:46:11.800
Stephen Marcus: They were the nicest people.

00:46:11.830 –> 00:46:18.900
Stephen Marcus: But and the other problem they had is they used to pay that condominium phase once a week.

00:46:19.040 –> 00:46:46.839
Stephen Marcus: which I guess isn’t a problem. They forgot that they had paid. It’s sad. They forgot that they were paying, so they were paying. Every week we try to reach the family. We try to deal with elder services, and finally we brought the case in Housing Court and said, We don’t want to do this, but these people are either going to kill themselves or everybody else in the building.

00:46:46.870 –> 00:46:52.109
Stephen Marcus: and the judge was so compassionate, and because the people had money.

00:46:52.130 –> 00:47:11.719
Stephen Marcus: actually ordered that he didn’t go to the extreme of excluding them for the unit, even though that was our request. He said he required that a home worker go in who had keys to the evidence of.

00:47:11.730 –> 00:47:13.230
Stephen Marcus: Prepare the males.

00:47:13.310 –> 00:47:30.689
Stephen Marcus: and then lock the stove and oven when they left, and these people had the money to to pay for that, and that was a excellent and compassionate decision by the judge of how to deal and take away the the danger.

00:47:30.760 –> 00:47:38.740
Stephen Marcus: But, there are some very sad stories where people

00:47:39.243 –> 00:47:49.220
Stephen Marcus: dangers to themselves and others. And you have to deal with that. So at all times be become passionate in terms of

00:47:49.731 –> 00:47:55.030
Stephen Marcus: how you treat people either with dementia issues or mental health issues.

00:47:56.690 –> 00:47:59.794
Stephen Marcus: that’s that’s that’s about that’s about it on the

00:48:00.250 –> 00:48:24.639
Stephen Marcus: the boiling, the boiling water. But when we started with conversations with the manager it was, oh, Robin, that’s crazy! Yeah, you can’t do that. And then well, well, why not, and that was a case of the property manager, as usual, being much smarter than we were as attorneys, and convincing us that we could go in and give it the best try, and we got a good result.

00:48:25.560 –> 00:48:37.009
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Excellent. Yeah. And and I think that’s something that whether whatever the issue is each set of facts is, gonna be different, how you gonna deal with something that’s in a unit versus

00:48:37.100 –> 00:48:57.683
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: not. And and this kind of just goes back to the same thing when to intervene versus respecting unit owners. Right? Slash privacy. Yeah, you. It sometimes is a judgment call you need to get the right experts. And you’re not expected to be a trained security force you can’t just break into a unit if you suspect something’s going on.

00:48:58.030 –> 00:49:02.240
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: yeah. And let’s let’s kinda I want to get into kind of

00:49:02.640 –> 00:49:20.329
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: you know, the the biggest metric is. And and again, we are getting a lot of good questions we. We will get to those. If we don’t get to them during the program we will get to them after and you know. So the biggest thing that we’ve kind of touched on here and there is.

00:49:20.779 –> 00:49:28.369
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: there 183 a 7 18 in Florida. What whatever statute you have that relates to the Condo act.

00:49:29.154 –> 00:49:31.386
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: There are certain

00:49:32.440 –> 00:49:36.390
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: kind of conditions where you can fine unit owners.

00:49:36.927 –> 00:49:52.280
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: That’s that’s usually one of the most simple sometimes that you can go through a due process hearing, what have you as to the rights to the fine usually $100 a day up to $1,000.

00:49:52.340 –> 00:49:58.290
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: for certain fines. What else can you do? What can a board member? What can a manager do

00:49:58.780 –> 00:50:03.959
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: beyond finding the unit owners. And we touched on.

00:50:04.000 –> 00:50:14.014
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: You know what is your right to evict or foreclose? It’s a little trickier Kettle, Brooks lost it. It’s it’s more of an interesting case. Because

00:50:14.700 –> 00:50:21.719
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: When can you boot a unit owner? What? What’s the what’s what would be the instances? We don’t know that. Yet

00:50:21.800 –> 00:50:47.349
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: there really is no specific case law that has allowed to basically foreclose on a property short of if you keep finding someone and basically forcing their hand to not pay a certain amount, so if you keep finding them keep finding them, then they go through the collections process. They don’t pay their fines or their dues that latch on with attorney’s fees.

00:50:47.350 –> 00:51:07.869
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: and then you can foreclose but that that that’s a that’s a whole process as far as just quick and easy. It’s not, it’s not. There’s not a a a condition like that. So what can you do? There are ways to suspend voting rights. In certain instances there are ways to let’s say someone is a nuisance at the pool area or the gym.

00:51:08.627 –> 00:51:19.372
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: There may be there might be depending on your governing documents certain rights to restrict amenity or common area usage.

00:51:20.656 –> 00:51:43.090
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: and again, the another thing we touched on was a court order to remove an owner. That is a possibility. But again, it’s not just an easy shut, open and shut eviction foreclosure process other kind of just prophylactic measures that you can kind of put into place are documents, amendments, and resolutions.

00:51:43.909 –> 00:52:01.059
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: That that basically provide more teeth to to action. This, this A and Norm and I were talking the other day about kind of background checks. This is a very

00:52:01.260 –> 00:52:28.070
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: custom and common practice in Florida. To have background checks, as it relates to incoming unit owners incoming tenants and and having the right to deny. Usually the denials are based on based on, let’s say, financial or income related issues. If they don’t provide bank statements or or something of that nature. There is technically a right to to refuse.

00:52:28.368 –> 00:52:32.849
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: If you have it in your governing documents, as it relates to an incomplete application.

00:52:32.850 –> 00:52:56.540
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: I don’t think that’s too much that’s too common in New England, nor would we necessarily a encourage it. But it is is a measure that has been used in other jurisdictions, and if it’s in your governing documents, we wouldn’t say, I mean, yeah, there’s there’s no there’s no restrictions as to doing it. That, said I would proceed with caution on that. Directors and officers insurance. That’s just important to have

00:52:57.050 –> 00:53:04.889
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: as something as a protective measure across the board. But yeah, these are. These are some of the the kind of

00:53:04.980 –> 00:53:09.620
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: area. What? What what else would you guys add to to what I’m kind of getting at here.

00:53:09.620 –> 00:53:12.390
Stephen Marcus: Well, I was gonna try to pick off at the

00:53:12.790 –> 00:53:15.350
Stephen Marcus: one or 2 of the questions

00:53:15.911 –> 00:53:18.519
Stephen Marcus: the there’s 1 about, isn’t

00:53:18.640 –> 00:53:19.530
Stephen Marcus: there’s

00:53:21.010 –> 00:53:37.019
Stephen Marcus: for the police. And they’re not our problem. Unfortunately, the answer is, no, I mean, if there’s a dain dangerous activity or unit owner at your property. You can certainly call the police.

00:53:37.510 –> 00:54:02.550
Stephen Marcus: You can, certainly. Speak to your attorneys and get various measures of what you can do. But if there’s, for example, in the 2 surgeons case, if there’s negligence and security, because people can just walk up the the staircase and get to that to the penthouse floor.

00:54:03.029 –> 00:54:22.749
Stephen Marcus: That’s not a police issue. that’s an issue of the Board of Manager. Have some obligation to see that the potential for crime in that case was foreseeable and take measures to to stop it. The other. The other thing that was mentioned is.

00:54:23.111 –> 00:54:36.480
Stephen Marcus: nice comment about that, somebody saying a lot of mental health issues, and they are very sad but then the person has what? There’s not anything that can be done, and I guess I disagree

00:54:36.710 –> 00:54:42.610
Stephen Marcus: free somewhat with that. And again we start gently. So

00:54:42.700 –> 00:55:08.870
Stephen Marcus: contact the family members if you can find them contact elder services or mental health service agencies, and Eve even. And if you then need to try a court order or other enforcement do it in a compassionate way that we don’t want to do this. The person has a disability, but

00:55:09.020 –> 00:55:36.940
Stephen Marcus: the actions of the owner are a danger puts the the residents in the building in in danger, and so I think some steps have to be taken, and add to that the bringing in the Security risk management consultant to to do an assessment of the property for the potential issues might help no.

00:55:37.640 –> 00:55:50.660
Norm Orban: Yeah. And I think I agree with that. And that’s also something. What we touched upon earlier. If it’s just the the people that are pegging you with issues and complaints that aren’t necessarily kind of related, you know. I I think that’s part of it, and that you you have to just

00:55:50.710 –> 00:56:06.639
Norm Orban: stop the instant gratification at some point in time. If it’s this separate issue, obviously the mental health part of it’s important. And if there’s a way to contact the family and stop anything that’s great, but where it’s not possible, might just mean that you have to sort of do your best to hold. Take a deep breath and just say, Look.

00:56:07.010 –> 00:56:09.330
Norm Orban: we’re going to respond at this point in time.

00:56:09.770 –> 00:56:17.320
Norm Orban: the end and I honestly you could. You could respond every time say that, or you could just ignore the person, then get back to them on a monthly or quarterly basis, to say.

00:56:17.660 –> 00:56:25.349
Norm Orban: to kind of show it by example. This is how we’re going to handle this situation because you’re you’re overrunning the board and overusing our use used resources.

00:56:25.610 –> 00:56:35.000
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Yeah, and and and I, I think that kind of the last question we kind of put on this is, what we kind of started this with is is the the biggest

00:56:35.150 –> 00:56:42.280
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: issue that comes up that we see the most. I should say not the biggest, but the most common one that we see is

00:56:43.740 –> 00:56:54.559
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: You know what? What can there? 183 a. Is designed, and 7 18 in Florida and other Condo act. Statutes are designed to actually provide for.

00:56:55.002 –> 00:57:21.410
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Very specified, delineated Items that you can request from a board the what you have a right to which includes financial records which includes the the governing documents which includes certain other measures or or metrics. Now, let’s and and Norm and I are handling a matter right now where the request that we recently got is

00:57:21.410 –> 00:57:32.409
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: a very, it basically just cites the the 183 a in Massachusetts. As to financial records requests. And

00:57:32.510 –> 00:57:41.250
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: that is a relevant question. That is one that we can comply with, and that we have a duty to comply with other questions as to

00:57:41.830 –> 00:58:03.607
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Oh, what are the licenses of the Board member, you know? Just just hectoring questions are are not necessarily relevant and and other things that they’ll ask as to just random things that are basically a stream of consciousness. Requests. I, you know. Wh. What do you? What do you do in that instance?

00:58:04.250 –> 00:58:19.009
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: So I I think that in these instances, as far as a a a request th. The statute should be in line with what what you can comply with, what you don’t have to comply with, or or what what basically is irrelevant

00:58:19.355 –> 00:58:33.499
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: and and noise? A a. And yeah, if it’s it’s obstructive, it it gets into. There is a question as to suing. If it one unit owner sues another unit owner technically. I mean, I I think, what

00:58:33.500 –> 00:58:53.070
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: and and what W. Who would have to it? Says you would be suing yourself. I think in that that instance it’s if it’s a derivative lawsuit by the unit owners against a board, and then insurance comes into play. There could be the issue of double attorneys fees. But when one unit owner is just causing so much of a ruckus

00:58:53.594 –> 00:59:00.230
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: and it’s causing, you know a lot of attorneys fees to be spent.

00:59:00.460 –> 00:59:12.030
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Yeah, you you don’t wanna have to. You don’t wanna have to. Just basically deal with that. And and and the payment of that so th, that’s where you kind of can push back and say.

00:59:12.050 –> 00:59:35.939
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Alright, cease and assist we will comply with relevant requests. But again, that that may come with cost and and it, it might not be an issue that goes away completely other issues that involve common areas, other issues that involve units and the usage of units and the rights to privacy that’s gonna be a little trickier to to impede on

00:59:36.319 –> 01:00:02.579
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: but yeah, I think I think we we kind of hit on the the major areas which are one disruptive constant request common area. If there’s an issue going on and and violence on the common area. What? What’s gonna happen with the kettle, brooks, case and and kind of can that be used as guidance for future. Kind of you know, Stephen mentioned. If there’s possible issues with

01:00:02.995 –> 01:00:30.049
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: where’s the line? And and wh what’s gonna cause. You know th the rights to further action beyond fines. And then in a unit just protecting the wellbeing of all unit owners and dealing with dangerous dangerous owners, while also, respecting unit owners, privacy rights. We’re happy to answer any specific questions, and I know we didn’t get to all the questions in the chat. But we appreciate you.

01:00:30.687 –> 01:00:36.942
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Coming out today on a Friday. It is the Celtics parade day congrats to them.

01:00:37.890 –> 01:00:43.499
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: it’s been a good year for for our sports teams. Norm is a Michigan wolverine fan

01:00:44.150 –> 01:00:47.060
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: and with that we thank Norm for joining us today

01:00:47.649 –> 01:00:50.699
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: any final words from the 2 of you hooligans.

01:00:51.250 –> 01:00:52.750
Stephen Marcus: No firm

01:00:53.010 –> 01:00:57.170
Stephen Marcus: if you can cut and paste the chat the questions.

01:00:57.420 –> 01:01:01.719
Stephen Marcus: Jake. Yeah. we’ll send you next week

01:01:01.970 –> 01:01:04.459
Stephen Marcus: the Powerpoint next month.

01:01:04.460 –> 01:01:05.250
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Month.

01:01:05.970 –> 01:01:06.850
Stephen Marcus: Next week.

01:01:07.490 –> 01:01:08.510
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: What’s next week?

01:01:10.300 –> 01:01:11.740
Stephen Marcus: Next week we send the.

01:01:11.740 –> 01:01:14.700
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Oh, send! Oh, I thought you said. We’ll see you next week.

01:01:14.700 –> 01:01:26.380
Stephen Marcus: No, no, no, yeah. Isn’t that July 4th or close? No, we’ll send you send you next week the the Powerpoint

01:01:26.924 –> 01:01:32.029
Stephen Marcus: a link to the to the program, to the video.

01:01:32.050 –> 01:01:43.297
Stephen Marcus: and answers to the questions that were in QA. And chat and questions that we got prior to

01:01:44.556 –> 01:01:45.910
Stephen Marcus: The today.

01:01:46.000 –> 01:01:51.270
Stephen Marcus: And I think, yeah, just want to thank everybody for

01:01:52.210 –> 01:01:53.490
Stephen Marcus: for accounting

01:01:54.270 –> 01:01:57.450
Stephen Marcus: and keep. Yeah, keep cool.

01:01:58.180 –> 01:02:04.345
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Yeah, keep cool. Enjoy July 4, th and and yeah, make sure to

01:02:04.850 –> 01:02:07.080
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: check out the Celtics parade today.

01:02:08.360 –> 01:02:15.139
Norm Orban: Yeah, thank you. Everyone. I hope everybody has a great weekend. It was a it was a pleasure to be here, take part of this, and I’m sorry for the the microphone

01:02:15.200 –> 01:02:16.250
Norm Orban: whiteness. It’s

01:02:16.380 –> 01:02:17.460
Norm Orban: unlike me.

01:02:25.980 –> 01:02:28.639
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: We still have a lot of attendees. What’s everyone.

01:02:28.920 –> 01:02:31.010
Stephen Marcus: Oh, they’re they’re dropping quickly.

01:02:31.010 –> 01:02:32.732
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Encore. Do they want an encore.

01:02:35.750 –> 01:02:36.850
Stephen Marcus: a.

01:02:38.840 –> 01:02:40.720
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Norms go on a basketball practice.

01:02:40.720 –> 01:02:42.709
Norm Orban: Had to pick up my kid at 1130.

01:02:42.920 –> 01:02:43.740
Stephen Marcus: Oh, jeez.

01:02:43.740 –> 01:02:44.800
Norm Orban: Plenty of time.

01:02:46.130 –> 01:02:51.050
Stephen Marcus: Yeah. Normally, we go over. So this was this was good. It sort of ended on time.

01:02:51.720 –> 01:02:52.690
Stephen Marcus: Yeah, it was good.

01:02:52.690 –> 01:02:56.369
Norm Orban: Good question. I’m surprised. I’m that’s weird about whatever it’s my email, it’s my home computer. But

01:02:56.630 –> 01:02:58.830
Norm Orban: can you guys hear me? Okay? Or is it just that one.

01:02:59.940 –> 01:03:00.440
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: It was.

01:03:00.440 –> 01:03:03.210
Stephen Marcus: When you, when you move closer it was definitely louder.

01:03:04.210 –> 01:03:06.980
Norm Orban: I definitely had my kid. You can’t see it. Well, actually, let’s see.

01:03:06.980 –> 01:03:08.420
Stephen Marcus: Yeah, we didn’t.

01:03:08.420 –> 01:03:13.689
Norm Orban: But what you don’t realize is so my way my office is. So there’s a window

01:03:13.880 –> 01:03:19.399
Norm Orban: here to the other room where he’s he was just standing right there asking me questions.

01:03:19.820 –> 01:03:21.129
Stephen Marcus: Oh, okay. Okay.

01:03:21.130 –> 01:03:21.820
Norm Orban: Calm.

01:03:22.230 –> 01:03:25.330
Stephen Marcus: Yeah, we no, we didn’t say that. But yeah.

01:03:25.530 –> 01:03:27.410
Stephen Marcus: a

01:03:27.490 –> 01:03:32.920
Stephen Marcus: yeah. The mic was just that. Soon as you moved up a tiny bit it was perfect.

01:03:32.920 –> 01:03:33.620
Norm Orban: Okay.

01:03:34.280 –> 01:03:34.855
Stephen Marcus: So

01:03:35.500 –> 01:03:38.450
Stephen Marcus: okay, so enjoy your weekends.

01:03:38.450 –> 01:03:39.300
Norm Orban: Yep. Let’s see guys.

01:03:39.300 –> 01:03:41.319
Stephen Marcus: If you if you go to the

01:03:42.248 –> 01:03:45.110
Stephen Marcus: duck both. And yeah, Jake, enjoy it.

01:03:45.280 –> 01:03:47.126
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: I don’t think I’m gonna make it.

01:03:47.390 –> 01:03:48.319
Norm Orban: Like, right now.

01:03:48.640 –> 01:03:50.330
Stephen Marcus: Yeah. Saturday, 10.

01:03:50.330 –> 01:03:51.020
Norm Orban: Okay?

01:03:52.580 –> 01:03:53.319
Norm Orban: Hmm. Oh.

01:03:53.850 –> 01:03:55.075
Norm Orban: alright, guys have a great weekend.

01:03:55.280 –> 01:03:55.610
Stephen Marcus: Is it.

01:03:55.610 –> 01:03:56.560
Norm Orban: Monday, Jake.

01:03:56.560 –> 01:03:57.750
Jake Marcus – Allcock & Marcus: Alright. See you! Monday.


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