02.23.2024 | Webcasts & Podcasts


00:00:01.910 –> 00:00:05.160
Stephen Marcus: You. You can mute me whenever you want Jacob Allen

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Jake Marcus: fair enough, and you’ll make us do timeout

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Jake Marcus: alright. So people are starting to populate in.

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Jake Marcus: Wow! We’re getting some. It’s like Taylor swift concert. Everyone’s rushing through the door

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Stephen Marcus: inside. Inside addition, an extra. Both showed Travis’s plane landing and

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Jake Marcus: Australia, or wherever she is. Actually, this is very topical for our our discussion today. They also showed them at the Australia Zoo. And they’re getting backlash because they let you actually interact with the pets at the Zoo, or animals at the Zoo.

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Jake Marcus: and that’s apparently Pete is getting all up in arms about it. They said they should go to a one that you’re not allowed to interact with the animals. So, of course, is a reasonably prudent lawyer. I would say to the Zoo. What’s the liability issue that you’re getting into here, folks, when you start petting the lions and tigers on my upside down? It? And my last comment, for the hour is

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Stephen Marcus: when you flush the toilet. Does it go

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Stephen Marcus: the other way from toilets up here? The water?

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Jake Marcus: I was there for a couple of months. So II didn’t really. I was avoiding all the crazy animals, kangaroos and all that. So

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Jake Marcus: Jake, do, do you wanna start and maybe say something about, say, New England, yeah, I was just about to do that. So yeah. So we thanks everyone for coming today. This is our

00:01:49.730 –> 00:02:19.080
Jake Marcus: twelfth episode of the Marcus Hour. Happy anniversary, happy anniversary one year, and we have a very special guest, or this will be a good one today. It’s an exciting topic. And yeah, we we’ve been doing these for a year now. And all you know that we try to hit on the hot topics that are covering the condo world. We are all cock and Marcus. Today. We have 3 members from all Cock and Marcus full service law firm representing

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Jake Marcus: you can see it here, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Maine, and Florida.

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Jake Marcus: And we’ve been up and running for 18 months, and th. This is part of our educational services. This is not to be legal advice, if you need proper legal advice or specific questions, as it relates to your situation, involving Pat’s involving what have you? We are full service firm we are happy to help or consult with an attorney to ensure that you get the proper advice. But this is for educational services. Today is a fun one.

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Jake Marcus: We are discussing, and I’ll get the slideshow started

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Jake Marcus: oops. Yeah, there we go. Oh, wait, hold on a second.

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Jake Marcus: I have to do share screen.

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Jake Marcus: Yeah, you can’t tell. We’ve been doing this for a year, so I don’t know how to share the screen. So here we go. So that is our. Those are our mug shots. We got

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Jake Marcus: my dad, Steven Marcus on the left hand corner. That’s me, Jake and then Ellen, our guest, speaker the expert on Fha. FHFA requirements, and she will be a wealth of knowledge today for us. And then we also have

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Jake Marcus: couple of other special guests. This is James. He’s a he’s a he’s a dog, and this is Digby. He’s a dog, and he’s a dog. He’s 13 years old. Pekanese pug and James is an 8 year old Pekanese poodle, and they’re both wearing their best outfits today.

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Jake Marcus: I do wanna give a quick shout out to Community Associations Institute mainly Community Associations Institute, New England. We work heavily with them. We also work with Community Association. Cai, Southeast Florida, and Cai National.

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Jake Marcus: we are actually Steven and I were just at the Conference the National Loss seminar in Vegas this past week. Stephen presented on planning for the next stage of your career.

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Jake Marcus: And th. There’s plenty to to discuss there. But today we’re gonna keep to the topic. If you have any condo issues your board member, property manager

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Jake Marcus: go to Cai. They have plenty of information. In fact, we are going to at the end of this seminar today because we can only fit so much into an hour. We are going to provide both a HUD guidance, which is a 19 page document which was released in January 2020. As to it’s not the law, but it’s a guidance as to how to handle animals in your communities.

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Jake Marcus: We are also going to. Provide a Cai best practices. Guide again, not the law.

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Jake Marcus: but some best practices you can follow when you are dealing with animals in your community. Not so that.

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Stephen Marcus: everybody knows. C. Say, I, community Associations Institute is now an international nonprofit for the education, for the best guidance for the development and operation of community associations, whether they be condominiums, homeowner associations.

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Stephen Marcus: or Co. Ops. And we suggest that

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Stephen Marcus: everybody should join this organization, because you can get an awful lot of advice articles seminars at a very reasonable cost. There.

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Stephen Marcus: Massachusetts number is 7, 8, 1, 2, 3, 7, 9, 0

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Stephen Marcus: 2 0. If we can, we we can get that to them. And yes, very good. Very good resource well, it’s also the only

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Jake Marcus: organization solely devoted to this particular form of community living. So there’s no other place where you can get it. Centralized knowledge and one source shopping absolutely absolutely. And they’re national, international, actually, so anything you need, whether it’s local, international, they are huge organization, and and yes, so now we’ll get kind of to the

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Jake Marcus: today’s topic. Look at this little cute dog, not as cute as the 2 we have today with us. But we are going to be navigating fair housing and the growing challenges of service animals, Esas and condominiums. Now, right? I was gonna say, raise your hand I was gonna say, well.

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Jake Marcus: raise your hand. Yeah, you can raise your hand. Cause? I do think, yeah, I do think you have a function where you can do it. Raise your hand if you have dealt with pets in your community. All right. Service animals or Esa’s in your community.

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Jake Marcus: Oh, we’re getting a lot of hands raised. and I hope there’s more hands raised for this.

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Jake Marcus: Raise your hand. If you have a policy in place in your governing documents related to pets or animals

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Jake Marcus: they’ll probably be if you’re still, if you’re still raising, rushing to raise your hand from the last question. We’re we’re getting a lot of them. So this is good.

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Jake Marcus: both good answers. And if you haven’t had an issue yet, you’re you’re most likely gonna run into one. And that is where we bring in the expert Alan Shapiro today. To discuss what to do. Again, we will provide documents at the end of today’s seminar. That that provide guidance. But we hope that we can be educational in our approach today

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Jake Marcus: and let’s move on to the next slide.

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Jake Marcus: So we’re gonna be discussing the 2 2 intertwined or

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Jake Marcus: kind of similar Guidel acts. The Fair Housing Act and the Americans with Disabilities Act they’re both Federal. The Fair Housing Act is is a an act that prohibits discrimination and housing on basis of race color, re, religion, sex, national originial status disability.

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Jake Marcus: There are local analogs and we have listed the statues that apply in each jurisdiction that we represent.

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Jake Marcus: And you can in Massachusetts. That’s the one we’ll probably be discussing the most today. For ease of reference 1 51 B. And then there’s other ones in New Hampshire, Maine, Rhode Island and Florida

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Jake Marcus: the Ada, which was passed around the same time as the Fha, which the Fha was passed in 1989 the Ada was passed in 1990 Federal law, where disabled persons are allowed to have service. Animal.

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Jake Marcus: 88 does not apply to condos or housing providers. Unless the proud property is subject to public use. I did want to make a quick note, because I don’t think we discuss it in our

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Jake Marcus: in our presentation. But Fha defines

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Jake Marcus: defines handicap, whereas Ada defines disability, but they’re almost verbat per verbatim. The same use of the terms. So that kind of shows you how there’s very similar interconnectivity between these 2 acts. But we’ll get into. We’ll get into the fha mostly today.

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Jake Marcus: Again, those are just the definitions,

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Jake Marcus: which are pretty similar in nature a, and provide what we are. You know the the authority that we’re relying on.

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Jake Marcus: And this differs from the air carrier Access Act which prohibits commercial airlines from discriminating against passengers with disabilities

00:10:15.710 –> 00:10:37.389
Jake Marcus: this, and and in 2020 travel by air with service animals allowed airlines to require passengers with service animals to provide airlines with 2 forms of documentation the Us. Dot service animal air transportation form and the Us. Dot service animal relief attest station form. So you can tell in that photo.

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Jake Marcus: Digby is traveling on the seat. So this must have been pre pre, the 2020 kind of more stringent requirements. So just a distinction that we wanna make before, because there is some. You know, we do. A lot of stuff we wanna do today is is debunk a lot of the

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Jake Marcus: kind of conceptions out there. There’s been a lot of abuses in a thought and condos. There’s been a lot of abuses in restaurants and airplanes that I’ve I’ve seen. I think I saw in headlines like peacocks on airplanes. We’ve dealt with issues and condos with emotional support. Chickens. We’ll get into unique animals. We’ll get into all that today.

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Jake Marcus: So do you guys want to get into the reasonable modification and reasonable accommodations? Notice that there’s a interesting question

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Stephen Marcus: and II don’t know. Ellen wants to.

00:11:36.450 –> 00:11:42.219
Jake Marcus: Basically, we manage a property where dogs are not allowed.

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Stephen Marcus: A group of tenants. All went online, and all of them got doctors votes

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Stephen Marcus: from an unlike doctor in Virginia. All use the same site the Board of Frustrated, because it feels like people are abusing this, and they’re wondering if there’s anything they can do yet. So believe it or not to to vet these no pun intended, no pun intended. That’s a good one.

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Jake Marcus: believe or not, there actually is. And we’ll get into it. In the webinar. There is an Esa watch list online, where basically you can.

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Jake Marcus: It’s not foolproof, but you can verify if the if the

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Jake Marcus: prop or purported vet is a provider house or a medical provider is an actual legitimate

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Jake Marcus: provider. So we’ll get to. Well, let me just follow up on that it. The case that you’re talking about from Virgin with the Virginia doctor. He or she may actually be a licensed, practicing physician in Virginia. And fortunately or unfortunately, in today’s world of telehealth.

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Jake Marcus: It’s not

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Jake Marcus: unknown for people to have doctors in other States or jurisdictions, and you can. The law permits, and I use that word very loosely. People to find doctors and other jurisdictions, who will help them with their particular issues. Now I will say that when you have a group of people in one condominium with one doctor.

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Jake Marcus: and probably the Provider letters are pretty similar to me. That would be something that I would be interested in taking on. Now let me start with what I always start with. But Steven and Jake didn’t give me a minute, so I’m jumping in now. I am a dog lover. I start all my meetings at Condominiums and say, I will never live in a condominium. Why, I have a dog. I’ve always had a dog, and I know my dog is a Barker, he is

00:13:47.410 –> 00:13:57.229
Jake Marcus: and comes winter or rainy day. I open my door and I say, go on out bye, see you later. I’ll be waiting here with the towel.

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Jake Marcus: so I know that’s against the rules. I will strike that. I don’t know a condominium that would allow that maybe this one out there. But I don’t know it, so I want that freedom to have my dog and raise him as I see fit, and stay inside when it’s warm and not get wet, he can get wet, not me. So I will never live in a condominium, because I respect the rules of the game

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Jake Marcus: that brings us to the people who don’t respect the rules of the game which I believe you’re having in your association.

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Jake Marcus: Look, we were talking about this before the seminar started, and I know we’ve got a little field here.

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Jake Marcus: These are tough cases, and if you get. we never know how a judge is going to rule.

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Jake Marcus: and if you wind up in front of a judge who maybe has 3 dogs, who knows? He or she could say to the clerk in advance, because this does happen. I’m sorry if there are any judges listening in.

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Jake Marcus: I wanna rule in favor of these people. I don’t want them to have to get rid of their dogs, find a way to have make it happen. So you always have to be sensitive to the fact that every case can be a loser. But if you want to do something with those people and with the Virginia doctor, I’d love to take on the case

00:15:12.760 –> 00:15:18.010
Jake Marcus: absolutely. And then and a Alan, you brought up a a good point. That?

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Jake Marcus: Yeah, there there is. The. The, the guidance that we’re gonna provide is guidance. The law is very loose right now, and very kind of up and down it. It fits every circumstance depending on who’s promoting it. Which side of the verses you’re on absolutely. And that’s what we’ll get into the reasonable modification versus reasonable accommodation issue.

00:15:41.180 –> 00:16:02.529
Jake Marcus: And and again, Alan has dealt with a a lot of these types of issues, not just as it relates to pets. It comes up with wheelchairs and communities. You build it. You need to build a ramp different issues of that sort where where disabilities or handicap is just defined by Fha comes into play. Today, we’re gonna be discussing

00:16:02.560 –> 00:16:11.519
Jake Marcus: animals. And we’re gonna be discussing service animals versus support animals service animal is defined by Ada as any dog.

00:16:11.580 –> 00:16:38.610
Jake Marcus: Remember, specifically, dog. I think they also include miniature. I did. Okay. I was about to ask that as well. They include miniature horses. Yes, so so definitely, there is miniature voices or dog. So specifically when you’re looking at service animal, you’re looking at dog or miniature horses. And it’s a miniature voice or dog, that is, it sounds silly. But we’re gonna get to unique animals. So it kind of. That’s an important distinction that Alan has brought up.

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Stephen Marcus: Any dog can I go back to?

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Stephen Marcus: a

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Stephen Marcus: a final point on Ellen’s point about the economy. No petrol

00:16:51.910 –> 00:17:04.990
Stephen Marcus: 20 owners the next day group up they all got a letter from the same tele doctor and Virginia.

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Stephen Marcus: the the 2 points are one is I would love to have.

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Stephen Marcus: If Ellen takes on the case I would love to have her

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Stephen Marcus: depose

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Stephen Marcus: the therapist

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Stephen Marcus: I. Also I also wanna know if I get if I have to go to Virginia hopefully. Springtime. I’ll be happy to do it. Well, at this point it’s probably wanna do those just AI bots. So you’ll be depositing, and and you have to play around with what’s doctor. Patient privilege? Blah blah blah. But on some of these things

00:17:46.850 –> 00:18:01.090
Stephen Marcus: you get the impression based on the amount of contact that maybe there scams. But there may be some very, very good online sources where they speak to the

00:18:01.270 –> 00:18:12.940
Stephen Marcus: the owner. 2 h give it do a full intake and make the decision. The second thing I wanted to bring up was that. The

00:18:13.440 –> 00:18:21.139
Stephen Marcus: second thing I wanna bring up was just that some states playing around with language, saying.

00:18:21.350 –> 00:18:27.820
Stephen Marcus: If you are fraudulently issuing these certificates that could be a penalty.

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Jake Marcus: Yes, and now now I’ll mute myself.

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Jake Marcus: That’ll be very nice when it happens, and

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Jake Marcus: we’ll leave that for the next webinar on this. After that’s happened. Now let me get back to what I believe I was supposed to be talking about reasonable modifications versus accommodations.

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Jake Marcus: I like. You can read the slides yourself. I’ll tell you how I view it.

00:18:53.360 –> 00:19:16.869
Jake Marcus: which I think is very basic modification. You’ve got a policy in place. Typically it’s a restriction. Either. No pets, no dogs over 15 pounds, or something of that nature, and that’s what you are being asked to modify when you are confronted with a request for one of these animals. Now

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Jake Marcus: we’ll talk about this later. But when you’re talking about a service animal, if it is a service animal for a open and obvious disability. In other words, if somebody standing there with their guide dog and they are visually impaired. Obviously.

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Jake Marcus: I think we can all come around to the fact that that’s a service animal, and the conversation stops. The reasonable modification is they want their dog there.

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Jake Marcus: No questions asked.

00:19:47.400 –> 00:20:04.839
Jake Marcus: however, when you get to, and this gets trickier, if the situation is not open and obvious, and I find that this is kind of an interesting area. What if the service animal has been trained to spot, an epileptic seizure.

00:20:04.840 –> 00:20:18.249
Jake Marcus: post traumatic stress disorder, the new issues that are coming up, that we are aware of, that our disabilities and that service animals are being trained to do diabetes is one of them, one of the more recent ones

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Jake Marcus: in that circumstance. In that very limited circumstance

00:20:23.770 –> 00:20:29.289
Jake Marcus: you may ask for a letter from the medical provider

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Jake Marcus: to establish the nexus between the disability and the service and the service animal, whether it’s a service animal or an emotional support animal in either events.

00:20:41.750 –> 00:20:46.829
Jake Marcus: but that’s a very limited set of circumstances and facts.

00:20:46.950 –> 00:20:49.380
Jake Marcus: You can’t go beyond it

00:20:49.760 –> 00:20:51.030
Jake Marcus: now, if it’s

00:20:51.120 –> 00:21:10.929
Jake Marcus: if it’s been trained to perform tasks. You can ask what tasks it performs because of them walking in with a I look. I think I look relatively healthy, and I’m walking in with my 17 pound, and he has a service on them, which again, we all know you can buy from the Internet.

00:21:11.030 –> 00:21:26.869
Jake Marcus: and there I am, and I’m asking for this modification in your policy. You can ask what is the disability not to get into the specifics, but something like I have diabetes. The dog has been trained to spot. When my sugar spikes.

00:21:26.950 –> 00:21:42.569
Jake Marcus: and the task is that it will wake me up. It will bark, it will pause. It will take all measures to get me up and out. So those are the limitations on that. And we come back to that. When we talk about emotional support animals.

00:21:43.040 –> 00:21:53.209
Jake Marcus: The distinction, though, is whether it’s open and obvious or not. Those are the those 2 were 3 words, open and obvious. That’s the hallmark.

00:21:53.590 –> 00:21:54.670
Jake Marcus: Now.

00:21:54.710 –> 00:22:19.350
Jake Marcus: when we get to reasonable accommodations, it’s somewhat different because you’re typically talking about people who have again open and obvious crutches, cane wheelchair, something of that nature. They are asking for accommodations in the physical. I’m sorry the modification. They’re asking that the physical plans, if you will be modified for their particular needs.

00:22:19.930 –> 00:22:27.030
Jake Marcus: Things like ramping stairs. Things of that nature that they need to have done for them.

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Jake Marcus: That is very state-specific

00:22:30.530 –> 00:22:54.529
Jake Marcus: in Massachusetts. If it’s more than 5 steps. You don’t have to provide a ramp, and we’re only talking about the common area here. You don’t have to go into the unit and do anything that’s on the unit owner. But you do have to modify the common area if it’s necessary. Swimming pools by way of example, if it’s a community swimming pool you have to be able. The person needs to be able to get in and out to enjoy the swimming pool.

00:22:54.840 –> 00:23:05.680
Jake Marcus: and that’s the other catchphrase. What is necessary for them to use and enjoy their housing as though they were not disabled.

00:23:05.770 –> 00:23:13.890
Jake Marcus: And that’s very important, because we see things come up in that. Do we have to provide somebody sign language for the annual meeting?

00:23:14.160 –> 00:23:23.429
Jake Marcus: The answer to that is, in my opinion, yes, you do, because otherwise how can they use and enjoy their participation in the annual meeting.

00:23:23.800 –> 00:23:28.190
Jake Marcus: I know question has come up in the past. What about board meetings?

00:23:28.270 –> 00:23:44.560
Jake Marcus: Is that that’s a little different. In my opinion, I mean, the annual meeting is participatory. You could be voting on amendments. You could be voting on board members. Things of that nature. Board meetings are where you are just an observer listening. In

00:23:44.950 –> 00:23:58.629
Jake Marcus: I go. I can go either way on that. I tend to bend in favor of the handicapped person. If it is a reasonable ha! Accommodation, having a sign language interpreter, I do not think is a major imposition.

00:23:58.630 –> 00:24:18.229
Jake Marcus: Just remember it’s on the Associations dime. You cannot ask that person to pay for their sign language interpreter, and that is extremely important. I’ve had cases where the Board says, but they want to pay. They volunteer to pay. And you say, Thank you very much. That’s very nice. Nevertheless, you can’t

00:24:18.340 –> 00:24:19.580
Jake Marcus: let them pay.

00:24:19.880 –> 00:24:24.690
Jake Marcus: And this is important. Now, having said all that

00:24:24.760 –> 00:24:46.729
Jake Marcus: I would like to get to the Oh, where are we next? I’m skipping around a bit. Well, I just went to this. I went to this because this, this and we will provide the we don’t want you to, you know. Be completely reading word for word on the Powerpoint, because we will be providing these after we’ll be providing some other documents. But

00:24:46.790 –> 00:25:10.439
Jake Marcus: essentially, this slide that I have up right now provides alright pets are. It’s true. Pets are everywhere now. I know, especially when I’m in Florida. It’s III lived in a high rise there, and it seemed like there were more pets than humans. It was. It was quite the scene, and and it warm weather. It’s just more pets and more pets out and about

00:25:10.440 –> 00:25:25.110
Jake Marcus: again, as as Alan just mentioned. How does a board Member property manager determine if the person needs a reasonable accommodation for pet and this gets into the if it is as important words apparent and obvious.

00:25:25.110 –> 00:25:35.790
Jake Marcus: Open and obvious. Sorry oh, oh, no! Open and off. I knew it looked auto there. But okay, open and obvious.

00:25:35.790 –> 00:25:59.399
Jake Marcus: and you’re not allowed to ask the individual regarding the disability and cannot question it but can ask about the need for accommodation in the assistant animal. Now, one thing I’d like to point out, because we did talk about the Ada Briefling. There is a common misperception that the Ada applies to condominiums and housing.

00:25:59.860 –> 00:26:10.430
Jake Marcus: and you’ll we get letters all the time quoting the Ada. To us. It doesn’t apply to housing where the Ada is important. Is that

00:26:10.480 –> 00:26:28.880
Jake Marcus: the laws, the local laws, you state laws, or your local agency that handles discrimination complaints, they will look to the Ada definitions as to what is a disability. So if the Ada has a definition that fits the persons

00:26:28.970 –> 00:26:44.760
Jake Marcus: mental or physical state that will be considered a definition. So the ad we can’t just say the a day doesn’t apply and didn’t move on. We have to be cognizant of the conditions that they say constitute a disability.

00:26:44.900 –> 00:26:55.290
Jake Marcus: and for all intents and purposes, for anybody who’s out there. The who’s a medical person listening, and they pretty much go along with the

00:26:55.370 –> 00:27:00.660
Jake Marcus: the Statistical Diagnostic manual, I think. Fifth, fifth, addition

00:27:00.660 –> 00:27:25.510
Jake Marcus: is what they’re looking at these days. So it’s a very, very broad, broad range, but nevertheless they have to get. Say to you, yes, this person is disabled under the terms of the Ada disability. They can’t perform this major life activity, and this dog does that helps them with it, to wit, it will wake them up if their diabetes plunges. If they’re shaped.

00:27:25.510 –> 00:27:26.620

00:27:26.620 –> 00:27:51.729
Jake Marcus: dog will stand next to them if it’s a larger dog and help them to be stable on their feet. There are many, many things that I think. Unfortunately, people who are not dog lovers, and I know there’s a whole world out there of people who aren’t dog lovers, including our own beloved at Allcot. Nevertheless. That’s

00:27:51.850 –> 00:28:13.300
Jake Marcus: these dogs are very, very competent and capable of doing these things. So this is not a pitch for Peter. Let me make that clear. However, I do understand the problems you move into. Let’s say, a high rise condominium. You hate dogs. You’re terrified of dogs whatever. And

00:28:13.300 –> 00:28:22.990
Jake Marcus: suddenly you get into the elevator. And there’s this person with this terrifying James, and if you can’t see him, he’s very fierce, very fierce.

00:28:23.460 –> 00:28:35.100
Jake Marcus: but the person is shaking in their boots literally. What do you do? That poor person moved here with an expectation that they would never have to see a dog in a closed box of the elevator.

00:28:35.350 –> 00:29:01.360
Jake Marcus: Unfortunately, the board has to yield in that circumstance. If they’ve been provided with the proper evidence, they can’t say, Oh, we have a service elevator, Jake. Make James take. You guys use the service elevator. You can’t do that because the person who is disabled has the right to the same use and enjoyment as any other person, which means he or she doesn’t have to use the service elevator.

00:29:01.650 –> 00:29:06.289
Jake Marcus: No, these are all tough, tough issues.

00:29:06.500 –> 00:29:17.759
Jake Marcus: I wish I could tell you the answer to all of them. That case by case they’re fax specific, and they’re costly to fight, and that’s the rub for community associations

00:29:18.160 –> 00:29:22.440
Jake Marcus: at the end of the day. How much money do you want to put into fighting this?

00:29:22.550 –> 00:29:37.540
Jake Marcus: Now I’m going to skip a bit because you’re going to get the slides later. What do you do with the person who says to you? I’m allergic to dogs. That’s why I moved here. I’m allergic to dog dander, or whatever I have an allergy to this animal

00:29:38.010 –> 00:29:40.360
Jake Marcus: again. Tough question.

00:29:41.470 –> 00:29:50.890
Jake Marcus: It’s very easy for us to sit here on the panel and say, Try to come up with a reasonable solution that works for both of them.

00:29:51.410 –> 00:29:58.300
Jake Marcus: I was at a seminar many years ago. put on, believe it or not, by the Mass Commission against discrimination.

00:29:58.350 –> 00:30:02.680
Jake Marcus: And I asked that question, person is allergic. What do you do?

00:30:02.740 –> 00:30:29.080
Jake Marcus: And the answer I got was, they can take a pill. The person with the disability has nothing else they can do other than have this animal. I have to tell you I was stunned. I really was. I thought it was a somewhat cavalier, and possibly irresponsible answer. I know, as an attorney, I’m very hesitant to say to somebody, Take a pill, because next thing you know, they’re allergic to the pill, and it’s my fault they died. But having said that

00:30:29.530 –> 00:30:44.840
Jake Marcus: this. This is the problem as a real one. We’re confronted with it. And the reason I tell that particular annoying story is, I don’t think anybody has a good answer to that question. I really don’t. So when we say, try to find a solution.

00:30:46.190 –> 00:31:13.230
Jake Marcus: it’s a problem that basically doesn’t have a solution. That’s. And if you can get the people involved involved in the discussion, that’s the best way. If you get the person with the animal and the person with the allergy, or the fear? Or what have you if you can get them on the same page in a room to talk about it? Okay, you need a hepa filter to the person with the allergy doesn’t sneeze through it. That’s really the number one way to handle it.

00:31:13.230 –> 00:31:23.370
Jake Marcus: because ask you for

00:31:23.470 –> 00:31:34.869
Stephen Marcus: an answer to this one the Mcad said that the person that the person with the allergy should take a pill

00:31:34.930 –> 00:31:40.530
Stephen Marcus: good! Why couldn’t

00:31:40.730 –> 00:31:44.889
Stephen Marcus: the answer in some of these cases

00:31:44.940 –> 00:31:50.059
Stephen Marcus: be that the unit owner or resident

00:31:50.140 –> 00:31:52.470
Stephen Marcus: can take Prozac

00:31:52.690 –> 00:32:00.549
Stephen Marcus: or who’s to say that? Only that the only solution to the issue

00:32:00.870 –> 00:32:05.970
Stephen Marcus: on a emotional support case is

00:32:06.080 –> 00:32:13.839
Jake Marcus: an animal versus a that’s an easy one. Medical providers letter says it.

00:32:13.930 –> 00:32:35.049
Jake Marcus: There’s nothing else that works for my my patient. He’s been in therapy for 42 years. Great patient comes regularly, pays regularly, but without the benefit of this animal. All the therapy in the world, all the medication in the world isn’t going to work. That’s what you get confronted with Steven.

00:32:35.500 –> 00:32:39.030
Stephen Marcus: A resident goes to work each day.

00:32:39.120 –> 00:32:48.410
Stephen Marcus: and this is my last question goes to work each day for 12 h

00:32:48.450 –> 00:32:50.329
Stephen Marcus: without the animal

00:32:50.400 –> 00:32:53.809
Jake Marcus: and for listening. I said that before

00:32:54.560 –> 00:33:06.949
Jake Marcus: I said, even when they say when the other unit owners say we see him walking out and going to work and doing whatever, and the dog stays here, and and he doesn’t take the dog. That’s not the issue. The issue is.

00:33:06.960 –> 00:33:11.239
Jake Marcus: if the medical provider’s letter says, needs it to sleep.

00:33:11.270 –> 00:33:33.439
Jake Marcus: needs it to eat needs it to take a shower, etc., and so forth, that trups all it is, and and back to the original point. And we did. It’s it’s right on point with a question we got from a participant prior to this seminar. What if people in my community each need a disability or modification, and they conflict with each other?

00:33:33.440 –> 00:33:55.900
Jake Marcus: our recommendation was, find solution that accommodates both parties as well as possible. While complying with the integrity of the governing documents and the policy in place. I do like Ellen’s response, though, which was, which was, okay. Okay. If someone just needs to take a pill versus a a a dog, the the pill is

00:33:55.900 –> 00:34:05.100
Jake Marcus: kind of considered the less hindering to the community as well as, and this is what we recommend for pretty much any disputes in an association.

00:34:05.200 –> 00:34:28.150
Jake Marcus: Bring the party together. Now you did touch on another point. I think, Steven. What happens if you have 2 people with service and emotional support because service animals are particularly trained. So II don’t want to talk about competing service animals. In my opinion, a properly trained service animal doesn’t bark would take on other dogs.

00:34:28.199 –> 00:34:30.940
Jake Marcus: but competing emotional support animals.

00:34:31.010 –> 00:34:41.719
Jake Marcus: What if my emotional support, animal? And if my dog were, I mean I happen to think all dogs are emotional support animals. But leaving aside my personal opinion.

00:34:42.219 –> 00:35:03.600
Jake Marcus: if your emotional support animal doesn’t get along with somebody else’s emotional support, animal. Now that happens it can happen. You have a wonderful dog, and for some reason, and anybody out there who knows dogs or has dogs knows that sometimes they get something in their head, they just don’t like somebody or another dog. What do you do under that competing circumstance?

00:35:03.790 –> 00:35:06.090
Jake Marcus: That’s a tricky one. Again.

00:35:06.130 –> 00:35:27.260
Jake Marcus: I would suggest, have the 2 dog owners sit down, see if they can hash it out. My dog has to be walked between 6 and 6 30 at night, my dog, I can have my dog off 6, 30 to 7. It all depends on the reasonableness, not only of the accommodation being asked for, but the people asking for it.

00:35:27.580 –> 00:35:28.570
Jake Marcus: And

00:35:28.800 –> 00:35:51.270
Jake Marcus: unfortunately, and this is, I have no empirical evidence. This is anecdotal. The people who, I think, are gaming the system, let’s say with the phony letters, or what have you? I think they are the less reasonable ones when confronted with your dog is creating a problem for another owner, II that’s just anecdotal, but

00:35:51.370 –> 00:35:54.689
Jake Marcus: it kind of goes along with the mentality that games the system.

00:35:55.230 –> 00:36:05.729
Stephen Marcus: and and and with Jake we used to have them do play dates. If there were issues with with humans. Would that work for dogs?

00:36:08.120 –> 00:36:35.690
Jake Marcus: I need the mute button that they have on around the Horn. So what can you do as it relates to unit owners taking advantage of support animals. And we kind of been getting into this a little bit, and and yes, we are mostly discussing support animals the service animal bar. It is effect, or and it only relates to dogs only relates to many horses.

00:36:35.690 –> 00:37:00.620
Jake Marcus: There needs to be a specific person. Purpose that. And again, as the the key words open and obvious and training. So, but support animals, mostly discussing today. And that is the, you know, wrinkle that has, or area that has become, a lot more conflated with and contentious and and and so someone asked, Oh, that anyone can get. Everyone has anxiety department

00:37:00.620 –> 00:37:12.250
Jake Marcus: depression everyone. Ha! Everyone can get a pet and a pet. The bar used to be okay. Support animal improves your anxiety. Depression. By some

00:37:12.290 –> 00:37:31.859
Jake Marcus: it could be the old little or a lot whatever, but there’s no way of judging that. There are ways to look into the verifiability of a that Esa letter. There isn’t. Yes, a watch list that looks into sources of the letter and reliability. Some States allow. Or I should say

00:37:32.370 –> 00:37:37.680
Jake Marcus: that condos and hoas have the right to ask for approve for reasonably

00:37:37.690 –> 00:37:42.079
Jake Marcus: and not allow the animals disrupt the community activities.

00:37:42.190 –> 00:37:57.449
Jake Marcus: And there are other measures that can be put into place for taking advantage. We will get to the unique animals, which is another that’s a whole, another area, because that that kind yes, subspecies. Literally.

00:37:58.080 –> 00:38:23.070
Jake Marcus: But take away so far. Yeah, there’s misconceptions by public and misuse of terms. We have kind of you’ve been getting into the service animals versus support animals. Federal law. You wanna look at that. The the Ada fha, I should say and then there are also local and state analogs those will govern what you’re doing, or should govern what you’re doing. And as your policies and

00:38:23.070 –> 00:38:31.770
Jake Marcus: the there is no registry for

00:38:31.770 –> 00:38:36.070
Jake Marcus: emotional support animals. that’s another one that’s out there.

00:38:36.290 –> 00:39:01.400
Jake Marcus: I’ve even seen it on Facebook, you know, at the pop up as you want. Take your dog with you everywhere, Reg. You can get a re registry certificate for it. There is no such thing. It absolutely, it is not recognized. See, just concurred. And that’s one that we hear all the time, and they come up with this beautiful piece of paper. It’s got a seal on it. It’s lovely. No.

00:39:01.680 –> 00:39:03.619
Jake Marcus: and then you don’t have to accept it.

00:39:03.670 –> 00:39:29.539
Stephen Marcus: Somebody asked whether and it’s probably me whether I’m not asking a question, but mixing requirements for emotional supporting animals versus animals versus service animals. They say my understanding is the comfort. Dog does not always a company, the owner, whereas the service animal does.

00:39:31.540 –> 00:39:42.880
Jake Marcus: Yes, the answer is yes, the comfort animal works. And II somehow like I dislike the use of the word comfort animal. I really do. It’s an emotional support animal.

00:39:43.130 –> 00:39:55.499
Jake Marcus: and the emotional support aspect is when I’m at work I’m fine. I’m busy. I’m engaged. There are people around, but when I go into my unit at night

00:39:55.500 –> 00:40:20.490
Jake Marcus: I’m alone. I get depressed. I can’t sleep. I can’t eat. That’s why I need it in my unit, but not at work. And it. Ed says he has his emotional support. Whiskey instead of emotional support. Animal, as you can see. He sorry he wasn’t here today, but he’s here in spirit, literally. So I did want to get to the point that W. Again, we emphasize getting a policy in place. If you don’t already at your association.

00:40:20.490 –> 00:40:34.230
Jake Marcus: and the laws regarding service animals will override any condo governing documents, restrictions on pets, animals, basically at the end of the day, properly qualified emotional support. Animals will override them, too.

00:40:34.430 –> 00:40:51.430
Jake Marcus: And I know people, real boards struggle with it, other owners and occupants. Oh, occupants! Let’s talk about that for a second. My unit owner in an a condominium, or that allows rentals. My tenant needs an emotional support. Animal.

00:40:51.840 –> 00:40:53.250
Jake Marcus: What do you do about that?

00:40:54.190 –> 00:41:02.119
Jake Marcus: My opinion? Again, you have to do it because that is allowing that investor owner to use and enjoy his

00:41:02.220 –> 00:41:12.229
Jake Marcus: unit like a person, any other person. and you can’t discriminate against a person with disability in leasing. So there you go.

00:41:12.500 –> 00:41:41.109
Jake Marcus: So we we wanna get. And then the next one we wanna get to is and again, yes, continue asking questions in the chat. I do see some are coming in. But if we don’t get to it during this presentation, because we wanted this one’s mainly to get on the key points educational. But if there are specific questions, we will address those in a QA response via an email blast. Next week. I wanted to get to unique animals or non traditional animals. And we got a question from a participant that directly related to this.

00:41:41.110 –> 00:41:51.849
Jake Marcus: What should I do? As it relates to non-traditional or unique animals. This could include emotional support chickens we have dealt with that in the community. Peacocks.

00:41:51.850 –> 00:42:16.770
Jake Marcus: Turkey and I mentioned the peacocks that were on the airplane before. That’s that just seems dangerous.

00:42:16.770 –> 00:42:29.369
Jake Marcus: Yeah, couple of months ago. And the the key here, some governing documents include this but the owner requesting the unique animal has the substantial burden

00:42:29.370 –> 00:42:38.089
Jake Marcus: of demonstrating a disability related therapeutic need for the specific animal at the at the development.

00:42:38.140 –> 00:43:05.309
Jake Marcus: the requesting owner should be able to document and demonstrate the circumstances justifying the need for a unique animal versus a dog or a miniature horse. So this. This is purely emotional support. Animal, unique animals do not even tie into service animals, because the service animal is only dog and miniature choices. I guess you could define unique. But the other non unique, traditional, unique ones. So I wanna just touch on that. Briefly,

00:43:05.310 –> 00:43:16.119
Jake Marcus: it could be important to add something as to a clause in your governing documents or rules related to unique animals. Because that is something we’ve been seeing in our communities.

00:43:16.290 –> 00:43:23.640
Jake Marcus: again, we’re gonna provide the HUD guidance that was released for the Fha and January 2020.

00:43:23.780 –> 00:43:31.639
Jake Marcus: Do you guys want to touch on that at all? Or well, it’s basically, I think we have paraphrased all of it.

00:43:31.920 –> 00:44:01.830
Jake Marcus: the important point is that HUD is operating under the purview of the Department of justice which you know that that is very important. They, their ability to sanction comes out of that. Not that they are going to be indicted. I don’t wanna had anyone to think that the you know State police are, or the militia going to be at your door. But it shows the importance that has been placed on these issues.

00:44:02.210 –> 00:44:03.970
Jake Marcus: you really should.

00:44:04.190 –> 00:44:22.530
Jake Marcus: Ha! You would really have to be careful in doing this. You just have to. And I think that’s the watchword. You can’t do a knee jerk analysis, and we’re going to be sending you all this stuff. So, as I said, I don’t want to give. Just read it to you, but you have to be careful of the knee jerk reaction

00:44:22.740 –> 00:44:31.060
Jake Marcus: person moved in here. They knew we didn’t have a dog. No pets were allowed, and now is saying he needs he or she needs it.

00:44:31.210 –> 00:44:47.860
Jake Marcus: That just you can’t. You can’t do that. I mean, that’s a simple, simple statement, you can’t do it, and I’ve heard all the, all the grumbles. It’s not fair. What does the government do? And telling me what I can do with my property. It’s a private community that’s a big one. We know that

00:44:47.890 –> 00:44:52.800
Jake Marcus: and basically, we agree with you because we’re land use attorneys.

00:44:52.810 –> 00:45:00.289
Jake Marcus: But this is an area that the Government has said. We are going to come in and do some

00:45:00.600 –> 00:45:06.049
Jake Marcus: legislation if you will. That takes away from your right to self governance.

00:45:06.970 –> 00:45:33.330
Jake Marcus: I think, yeah. And and and and yeah, the the Hub guidelines. We, we have paraphrased a lot of that. We we’ve been W. We’re trying to get the 10,000 foot view there is. It’s a 19 page document. We will send it after it. Yeah, it’s great. It’ll put you to sleep to sleep. Yeah, it’ll put you to sleep hopefully with your emotional support. Animal by your side.

00:45:33.330 –> 00:45:45.969
and yeah, II let my dogs in the bed. I know a lot of people. Yeah, a lot of people are strict about that. Like my dad. He’ll be like, Get out. No, I’m kidding, he he lets them into but I wanted to. I wanted to touch on some of the guidelines.

00:45:46.240 –> 00:46:07.950
Jake Marcus: Very important note before I get into it. The Hub guidelines are not mandatory law. but I highly recommend it as they provide best practices. We also want to give that quick plug to Cai, which also provides a best practices. I think it might be a little shorter than the 19 page that we it’s an easier read, easier read. It’s usually they do one page kind of best practices. What I did want to point out.

00:46:07.950 –> 00:46:32.620
Jake Marcus: step by step, step by step, set of best practices, and a process that you should have or could have, and again, guidance in place for the compliance with the Fha it has the info on the types of animals. Again, it distinct the distinction between a dog, manager, horse, and a you know, peacock or turkey and best practices when the animal is unique.

00:46:32.620 –> 00:47:00.970
Jake Marcus: Determining the reliability of the documentation which we got into a bit today. Yeah, if you’re getting the same letter from the same doc or from 10 unit owners about the same doctor. That’s that’s a little fishy. They should just emotional support. Yeah, a fish that would. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So you know a a fish that that would get in no one’s way, that that should. Probably that probably wouldn’t be restricted

00:47:00.970 –> 00:47:08.769
Jake Marcus: stuff like big aquarium water. If they leak, you can have a real water problem. So

00:47:08.980 –> 00:47:18.589
Jake Marcus: everything that you can think of a unit owner will beat you.

00:47:18.590 –> 00:47:41.979
Jake Marcus: Because and yeah, any, any, every issue should be dealt with on a case by case basis, and this kind of how HUD provides for a a encourages the condo and hoa to engage in a interactive process. That’s really the name of the game. Yeah, interact. And if it’s yeah, again, the competing unit owners get them together, get them in a room, and I don’t know if you should bring the pets there, because that might cause some issues.

00:47:41.980 –> 00:47:57.270
Jake Marcus: But you know, don’t be overzealous or overreaching and requesting details, but actually interact. Oh, and also an important note the information may be confidential. So you need to be very careful with that information as well.

00:47:57.300 –> 00:48:12.609
Jake Marcus: Good good point, Jake. I will get questions to voice. Well, what do we do when unit owners want to know why this person has a dog when we have no dogs, what should we say? And the answer is, we comply with the applicable laws governing this docs perfect.

00:48:13.190 –> 00:48:22.010
Jake Marcus: and if people are so stupid that they can’t read between the lines on that, that’s their problem. But at least you are not violating anyone’s privacy.

00:48:22.140 –> 00:48:51.400
Jake Marcus: Okay? And and that’s that’s a and that’s a great point. And and it brings us to kind of what happens after. Maybe privacy is considered breached. Or there’s an issue with the unit owner. Again, these are unclear laws. A lot of this is arising out of unclear laws. So there is. It is completely right for discrimination, lawsuits, compliance. What have you and that discrimination process a whole. Another complaint process, not just a lawsuit that’s filed.

00:48:51.400 –> 00:49:20.959
Jake Marcus: What would you expect, in the event that a unit owner does complain? Complaint is usually mailed to HUD housing and urban development or fair housing and potentially the Equal opportunity commission with the eeoc often in the form of a discrimination, complaint again completely arises out of unclear laws and circumstances. So just be very careful with how you’re in taking every single kind of

00:49:21.080 –> 00:49:30.670
Jake Marcus: process. Right, Digby. And but the complaint process itself. There will be an intake there, there will be an investigation.

00:49:30.790 –> 00:49:46.550
Jake Marcus: Sometimes the buck stop there, sometimes it’s a little more involved. And then there is a period. You probably know this better than I as far as Massachusetts. The period after, when it goes to the hearing officer and it gets reviewed investigating officer and all that.

00:49:46.750 –> 00:49:57.339
Jake Marcus: Don’t worry so much about that, because what I’m going to say to you, and it’s not self serving. You get that document. You pick up the phone and call your attorney.

00:49:57.870 –> 00:50:20.319
Jake Marcus: let them worry about the time periods involved. These are strict time periods, and anybody who’s done any work in this field will tell you that particularly Massachusetts, where we deal with the Mass Commission against discrimination, which is, I say, exists to find discrimination, because if they didn’t find it they’d be out of jobs. Nevertheless, they are unyielding

00:50:20.320 –> 00:50:47.020
Jake Marcus: to attorneys, asking for extensions of time or things of that nature. But when it comes to the complaining person who feels they’ve been the subject of discrimination. They can have all the time in the world. They don’t have to follow the rules. So really, really, really, make sure you get your attorney involved in the first instance. It. And I’ll tell you what also happens. This is an aside.

00:50:47.500 –> 00:51:02.779
Jake Marcus: The unit owner has no idea what they’re doing. So they say. And managers, I know you’ve all heard this management is discriminated against me as though the manager just decided not to allow a dog, I mean. So it’s it’s very

00:51:02.780 –> 00:51:18.570
Jake Marcus: broad. The ability to make a complaint is so easy, so easy. And don’t forget they’re also getting. And this is a practice point. They’re getting free advice. You do. You go to the Mca. D. Or any of these governmental agencies.

00:51:18.720 –> 00:51:24.119
Jake Marcus: You get free lawyers, free hearings, officers, free investigators.

00:51:24.340 –> 00:51:42.630
Jake Marcus: So it’s very, very easy for them to do. And it’s a real hard burden for the Association, Eve. It’s one of those cases. Even if you win, you lose because you had to pay your lawyer to do all this work again. You get a letter, you immediately pick up the phone.

00:51:42.630 –> 00:52:02.200
Jake Marcus: Yeah? And and I would say, even, yeah, as soon as you even smell the possibility of an emotional support animal being involved. There’s some type of complaint being made. So usually, the people who are gonna abuse the system that will complain high as they can. They’ll they’re gonna push their luck so the second something happens.

00:52:02.290 –> 00:52:19.390
Jake Marcus: Consult with Council and they will be able to guide. As to, you know, making sure that you and we’ll get to some takeaway. I think we’ll be able to get to some other questions, too, because we have some time. Make sure that you’re incorporating your policies and governing documents and procedures correctly

00:52:19.390 –> 00:52:39.290
Jake Marcus: enforce with consistency. Don’t be selective, because that that just is gonna that that that that is most likely gonna lead to issues. You want to investigate on a case by case basis, treat all requests equally. And that goes, that’s that’s a fundamental tenet of of community association was, we know.

00:52:39.290 –> 00:52:47.819
Stephen Marcus: and II think the people listening. Well.

00:52:47.850 –> 00:53:03.619
Stephen Marcus: Allen has talked about these cases being very expensive that. In many cases a lot of it is free for the owner of the pet of of the animal. I’m sorry.

00:53:04.330 –> 00:53:10.600
Stephen Marcus: the insurance 900 and insurance crisis and

00:53:10.680 –> 00:53:15.010
Stephen Marcus: skyrocketing premiums and all that. But

00:53:16.630 –> 00:53:23.499
Stephen Marcus: there are some very good directors and offices, liability policies

00:53:23.700 –> 00:53:36.669
Stephen Marcus: that will provide that will Pr. Provide. It depends. What does that mean? That means that typically you could ask them to appoint us or your your own lawyer.

00:53:36.690 –> 00:53:48.199
Stephen Marcus: but they would subject to your deductible. It’s typically pretty small. Say, a thousand dollars. They will pay for the defense

00:53:48.230 –> 00:53:56.899
Stephen Marcus: but once you get that first letter that Jake was talking about. Once you smell trouble.

00:53:57.240 –> 00:53:59.640
Stephen Marcus: put the carrier on notice.

00:53:59.730 –> 00:54:10.830
Stephen Marcus: there’s a very good policy written out of Los Angeles by Kevin Davis insurance services, and there are other good policies

00:54:10.890 –> 00:54:23.480
Stephen Marcus: with Mcgowan and Ohio Wayne Dow at at preferred so he’s trying to talk. He’s trying to

00:54:23.900 –> 00:54:28.119
Stephen Marcus: say that again. So all your friends you saw last week at Cai National.

00:54:30.110 –> 00:54:43.450
Stephen Marcus: Say that again. Okay, okay. Yeah. All the friends that I saw at the seminar in Las Vegas

00:54:43.510 –> 00:54:54.340
Stephen Marcus: last week. But there is. make sure you have a very good condominium insurance agent.

00:54:55.520 –> 00:54:57.499
Stephen Marcus: It makes sure

00:54:57.540 –> 00:55:14.409
Stephen Marcus: that you have the best advice in terms of well, gee, we have employees. Does the dno policy cover this? Some do some down, some cover discrimination, some don’t. Typically it wouldn’t pay a judgement

00:55:14.480 –> 00:55:35.099
Stephen Marcus: in these cases. But if there were a settlement often times they they would. So yeah, and I think that’s I think that’s a good takeaway. In general, we’re only lowly attorneys. We can only offer so much. Get the right insurance agents in place. Get if it’s a, and again, we’re getting off topic a little bit. But you know, if you have

00:55:35.100 –> 00:55:45.240
Jake Marcus: structural issues, whatever engineers. But let’s get back to. Yeah, just make sure you get the right people get the insurance agents. Make sure those are okay. Do you know all that?

00:55:45.780 –> 00:56:10.130
Jake Marcus: And and yeah, just the last point as to final takeaways keep the records confidential and be uniform in your application. We are getting some questions. And actually, we just got a speaking of insurance? Does the tenant who has the emotional animal required to have insurance to cover the animal? Or does the association policy have to convert the animal. A dangerous pit. Bull.

00:56:10.130 –> 00:56:19.370
Stephen Marcus: No, no, no, the yeah the insurance is for this the go to the math Commission against discrimination.

00:56:19.370 –> 00:56:40.579
Stephen Marcus: They? What I was talking about was the kind of minimum Association board manager should look for a directors and offices. Model lines stand alone. Policy. Usually that will depend against discrimination claims. Alan, do you see?

00:56:40.680 –> 00:56:42.850
Stephen Marcus: I mean tenants should get.

00:56:43.280 –> 00:56:56.110
Jake Marcus: I think, that goes back to whether or not in your governing documents. To begin with, you have a requirement that if a unit is going to be rented out, that there has to be renters insurance.

00:56:56.270 –> 00:56:57.950
Jake Marcus: so that you that

00:56:58.040 –> 00:57:17.210
Jake Marcus: goes into a whole other issue. Of what do you do with tenants to begin with? And how do you write your documents? I do not think that the it would be considered reasonable to require a tenant to have who is disabled to have insurance on that animal. I really

00:57:17.550 –> 00:57:22.109
Stephen Marcus: I would. I would agree. and then you are not asked to thank.

00:57:22.140 –> 00:57:43.310
Stephen Marcus: Let’s say it’s a a pit bull. My understanding is. There’s a case out of New Jersey that says that you can’t discriminate, based on a breed. Therefore you have to get to know the specific pit bull and see if it’s friendly, or if it goes after you.

00:57:43.310 –> 00:58:01.270
Stephen Marcus: And after you interview the pit bull. Then you could allow a question for Allen I would have is, for that question is, you may want to have insurance so the insurance company may not give you coverage.

00:58:01.270 –> 00:58:30.340
Stephen Marcus: What the animal’s behavior. But what if an animal God forbid does bite somebody and I guess my question for Allen is, was the Mcad or hide ever allow a a policy that says, well, you can have the pit bull, but it has to be muzzled. One common areas from the get go not from the get go

00:58:30.410 –> 00:58:34.410
Stephen Marcus: day one.

00:58:34.650 –> 00:58:51.840
Jake Marcus: If there were some series of problems with the dog if there were complaints. I think that prior to taking a position, okay, the dog is bitten people. We want the dog out. We don’t care. That would be the next interactive dialogue. When the dog is out on the common area

00:58:52.300 –> 00:59:11.589
Jake Marcus: you can put a basket muzzle on. There are muscles that are. There are many muzzles not like the old, not like Hannibal lecter muzzles, but there are compassionate muzzles where the dog can’t bite. So I think that would be part of the interactive dialogue with that owner. What do you do when the owner is allowed to have the animal, the animals causing problems.

00:59:11.760 –> 00:59:18.899
Jake Marcus: Let’s be clear here, folks, if this is a vicious animal, I don’t care what the Mcad had.

00:59:18.910 –> 00:59:46.660
Jake Marcus: I don’t care if the governor says to you, this person needs this dog. You do not have to allow the dog to be a problem in the community, and even the head guidelines say you do not, and I’m not talking dangerous breeds, because Stevens, right? You can’t say no, Rottweilers, it’s dangerous breed. But if you can have a poodle that goes around biting people. And if that dog is biting people, that’s a problem. And you have a right to

00:59:47.110 –> 01:00:05.330
Jake Marcus: go to the next step, which is the interactive dialogue. See if you can find something, and if the owner refuses to cooperate, I would say that you can then take the position that the dog has to either remain in the unit or not be maintained anywhere in the Condominium.

01:00:05.370 –> 01:00:34.909
Stephen Marcus: People bring in stop right

01:00:34.920 –> 01:01:00.850
Stephen Marcus: going back to the case of Johnson versus Keith in 1975 or so the either Appeal court rule that Mrs. Johnson could have her poodle of poodles. And it couldn’t be in the rules

01:01:00.850 –> 01:01:10.529
Stephen Marcus: that it has to be in Massachusetts and master deed, or at least in the bylaws declaration of trust. So check with

01:01:10.530 –> 01:01:34.059
Stephen Marcus: your attorneys, and all these cases check check through somebody who knows the State law or in each State to see whether a rule would be allowed. But, Ellen, you agree that a per restriction would be not allowed, as a rule, in Massachusetts? Oh, absolutely. But that’s that’s like for a whole other issue. Having said that

01:01:34.060 –> 01:01:46.880
Jake Marcus: if you have a no pet community which did not have any pet rules, which is a different thing than having a rule, saying, no pets but pet rules, how they can be walked, etc., and so forth. You have. You can

01:01:46.880 –> 01:02:04.210
Jake Marcus: implement rules for this particular set of circumstances. If you are going to be confronted with people who need pets for what dogs or miniature horses, for whatever reason, although I get to have a community within miniature horse, maybe out in Western mass it happens,

01:02:04.210 –> 01:02:24.009
Jake Marcus: that you can have reasonable rules, that the dog must be on a leash. Second, you step into common area. That is a very benign rule that’s must be on a hand held leash secured with a miniature horse

01:02:24.010 –> 01:02:36.000
Stephen Marcus: that actually we got. We’re we’re past the past the hour because I talk too much. Anybody who wants to stay on for another 10 min feel free to

01:02:36.530 –> 01:03:05.829
Jake Marcus: we. And I did want to point out. I did post the HUD guidance link as well as Cai best practices, and basically a recommendation that Cai provides. Read those at your leisure that those provide plenty of sleeping material. And I did want to point out a question actually, that relates to what Ellen was just talking about with the leashes. Can you require support animals to comply with the same rules that a regular

01:03:05.830 –> 01:03:27.389
Jake Marcus: pet is required to follow? For example, dogs must be on a leash at all times, while condo property, and the answer is, yes. Another question we got. If an owner wants to rent to a person with an Esa. And the rules state the Board needs to review. Could they drag out the review process? Could the Board drag with the review process past a proposed

01:03:27.390 –> 01:03:35.330
Stephen Marcus: least start date and no, no, there, there, I have a problem, Massachusetts. If it’s a rule

01:03:35.560 –> 01:03:55.600
Jake Marcus: it really should be. Let’s assume everything’s perfect in their documents, because that takes us down another rabbit hole. So everything’s perfect in their documents, and everything’s in the right place, but the answer is, no, they can’t drag the process up. The answers to any inquiries about whether or not they can have this animal have to be given in a timely fashion.

01:03:55.810 –> 01:04:13.479
Jake Marcus: and that’s important. I had a case with what you know. We’ll we’ll do it at the next Board meeting. We didn’t have time at this board meeting, and it dragged on and on, and the unit owners attorney rightfully so, said, Hey, you know you’re violating the had regulations on this. It has to be timely, and that’s not time.

01:04:13.580 –> 01:04:21.219
Jake Marcus: And and you know, we eventually got it done. But the owner, user owners attorney, really was correct.

01:04:21.310 –> 01:04:23.579
Jake Marcus: This is a good one,

01:04:23.870 –> 01:04:46.410
Jake Marcus: yeah. Well, of course, but this one stuck out to me. Oh, well, of course they’re all good. I think they’re all all great, all, all all great. But this one I wanted to point out because we didn’t really get to it. A question has come up with a resident tenant claiming they need multiple Esas within a single unit. Is there anything associated can do to limit the number of animals?

01:04:46.410 –> 01:04:58.590
Jake Marcus: That’s a fabulous question. Actually, before the seminars start, Webinar started, we were talking amongst ourselves about that particular. Well, not that, but touched on that issue.

01:05:01.290 –> 01:05:18.230
Jake Marcus: I think that again. It’s going to depend on the level of evidence presented to you. And I wanna say proof. But evidence as to the wise, the nexus, and all of that. The the particular disabilities.

01:05:18.700 –> 01:05:27.209
Jake Marcus: I think it’s going to be on a case by case basis. I can’t give you a blanket. Yes, no, maybe so. Well, I guess maybe so, is the answer given.

01:05:27.830 –> 01:05:38.690
Stephen Marcus: again. It’s very fact. Specific. III am aware, but not in another state, but not enough to know what the reason ruling was.

01:05:38.790 –> 01:05:49.540
Stephen Marcus: But it might have been against the owner, but there were the the request was for

01:05:49.870 –> 01:05:52.590
Stephen Marcus: 6 chickens, not 5

01:05:52.950 –> 01:05:55.380
Stephen Marcus: at 7. Sex.

01:05:55.400 –> 01:06:24.130
Stephen Marcus: I think the court might have rejected that. But again, talk! Talk to Alan, or talk to your legal counsel. Because these cases as well chicken cases they also had to deal with municipal bylaws about whether or not you were in the business of raising a chicken. How many chickens you could have you’ve got? Also you’ve got those issues as well.

01:06:24.130 –> 01:06:28.200
Jake Marcus: So we’re we’re accounts, don’t allow foul.

01:06:28.290 –> 01:06:45.149
Jake Marcus: or they allow 2 chickens, or what have you? So it’s a very big issue. But you know the issue the where we started with the question. I did have one many years ago, where a person had a care provider

01:06:45.370 –> 01:06:53.800
Jake Marcus: it tied in with housing for older people and all that. I mean, we really got down the rabbit hole. The care provider had an emotional support animal.

01:06:54.490 –> 01:07:00.240
Jake Marcus: Needless to say, the Board said, Wait a minute. You’re providing care, but you need care, too.

01:07:00.750 –> 01:07:05.750
Jake Marcus: It’s gonna be like Noah’s Ark

01:07:06.240 –> 01:07:24.779
Jake Marcus: at the end of the day. The final analysis. The answer was, yes. The person needed an emotional support animal to help them. Sleep didn’t interfere with their duties as a care provider, showering, giving medication, feeding, you know, preparing meals for the disabled person.

01:07:24.840 –> 01:07:35.409
Jake Marcus: So just a a plethora of legal issues. And this isn’t self serving. That’s why you have to call your attorney the other thing to do.

01:07:35.620 –> 01:07:43.190
Stephen Marcus: Putting aside the screen where somebody from Peter will probably

01:07:43.220 –> 01:08:06.840
Stephen Marcus: get angry with. Well, we’ll blame it on Dina for the was a little depressed today, so I decided to get me one of those. Okay? So they had problems with that talk to Allen. But but what I was gonna say is, with all we’ve said.

01:08:07.340 –> 01:08:10.730
Stephen Marcus: we focused a lot on the negative.

01:08:12.000 –> 01:08:16.580
Stephen Marcus: Go open your minds to the idea

01:08:16.910 –> 01:08:26.549
Stephen Marcus: that there are some people think of your mothers or your grandmothers or grandfathers. Who

01:08:26.620 –> 01:08:38.630
Stephen Marcus: especially if they’re widowed, who may happen at truly have a need for an emotional support. Animal

01:08:38.880 –> 01:08:58.039
Stephen Marcus: don’t just assume out of the shoot that everybody requesting one is scanning the Association. Don’t take the position that our documents on the Bible what does hide and Mcad have to deal with allowing pets

01:08:58.649 –> 01:09:02.859
Stephen Marcus: don’t over luck by being over zealous.

01:09:03.170 –> 01:09:12.200
Stephen Marcus: The cases where, for example, the blind person who needs the same eye dog is easy.

01:09:12.240 –> 01:09:39.830
Stephen Marcus: But these emotional support animals don’t start with. Oh, it’s just another person scamming us. There are some I mean, Ellen said. She won’t live in a condominium because she needs her her pet. it’s not to be taken lightly, so II can do say that better than I did.

01:09:39.870 –> 01:09:47.189
Stephen Marcus: I’m sure. Probably less words, too. Oh, definitely and less words.

01:09:47.630 –> 01:09:54.570
Jake Marcus: There are some good. There’s some cases

01:09:55.230 –> 01:09:58.850
Jake Marcus: I’ll see you at lunch, Steven. One more question

01:10:00.150 –> 01:10:14.559
Jake Marcus: a dog. Alright. This is kind of just relates to pets generally. How do you handle a unit owner with a black lab, home alone all day barks and wines continuously disturbing other units.

01:10:14.790 –> 01:10:42.230
Jake Marcus: that one is essentially I mean, it’s it’s a it becomes quite enjoyment. And you’re interfering. What we said you, the animal cannot interfere with the, if you will, business of the or the living circumstances of everybody else, and that’s a tough one. But and I don’t care if it’s a black lab, my 17 pound cabs, and he drives me crazy. If I were in a condo, let alone other people.

01:10:42.410 –> 01:11:10.849
Jake Marcus: It’s a problem, and I take the position again and sound like a broken record. Talk to the owner. Make sure the owner understands the problem. Maybe even get some other owners to talk, to come into a meeting. They may not want to confront the owner face to face, but come into open meeting with the board, and all that to discuss the problems and what can be done? I know I leave TV on for my dog, and when I get home he tells me all the days. News, but

01:11:10.920 –> 01:11:28.620
Jake Marcus: you might have to. He might have to, and I hesitate, because the next question will be, Who pays for it? But the it might be necessary to have somebody come in during the day to give the dog a break to play for a little bit of time, so that you can get past the loneliness.

01:11:28.710 –> 01:11:52.299
Jake Marcus: I don’t want to get into who’s gonna pay for it right now, because that would be a whole other webinar, but there are things that can be done other than the knee jerk reaction. Your dog is interfering with everybody else. We gave you the dog. You needed it. But you can’t do it. Even HUD says you can’t disturb the whole community. Don’t go right to from 0 to 100. There are incremental steps to take.

01:11:52.990 –> 01:12:01.120
Stephen Marcus: Who wants to go in and play with the dog, and is happy that there’s a dog in the area that he can play with.

01:12:01.470 –> 01:12:28.189
Jake Marcus: You know, there are many different ways you have to be. Think, outside of the box. Okay, smoke signal works. Really, really? Well. But oh, look at that we have a slide with the

01:12:28.450 –> 01:12:40.190
Jake Marcus: okay, what if we can do is quickly cause it’s relates to the question that was the good one. If there’s one unit that has multiple Esa requests. So let’s say, there’s roommates.

01:12:40.450 –> 01:12:48.170
Jake Marcus: How would you go about handling that? Let’s say there’s 4 roommates in a in a. A apartment? 4 Esas

01:12:49.210 –> 01:13:07.279
Jake Marcus: again. Case making case. And and what are the Esa’s? Are they each 200 pound German shepherd? Are they like? Look at President Biden’s dog. You know, if he needs it for an emotional support animal, he’s got a problem with the Secret Service. They’re really unhappy with him.

01:13:07.290 –> 01:13:23.849
Jake Marcus: You, you’re gonna have case to get. And you know, you could see that actually gets back to the old city of Oxford case, Stephen, what if it’s a group home. and there are many residents in there who do need emotional support animals. And that’s a good point

01:13:23.950 –> 01:13:51.149
Stephen Marcus: Oxford House decision, I believe. But very, very powerful. And that was absolutely right. If there’s a group home, group buys a unit or 2 as housing for their people who they provide services for.

01:13:51.290 –> 01:14:16.390
Jake Marcus: and 2 or 3 of them need emotional support animals. I have a really, really, really deep seated feeling that you would have to bend on that and allow them all. I really I just feel pretty strongly because you can’t discriminate against the group facility A. You have to allow that. And then you can’t have the people in the group being deprived of their right to use it, occupy and enjoy by not having their emotional support animal.

01:14:16.390 –> 01:14:25.639
Jake Marcus: So I think it’s a great question. I hope it doesn’t come up tomorrow when my phone rings cause. I’ll probably live to regret this.

01:14:25.690 –> 01:14:31.740
Jake Marcus: but I have a strong feeling that the rule the association would lose if they try to prevent it.

01:14:32.220 –> 01:14:56.869
Jake Marcus: So that’s a great closing remark, and you know, case by case. Do what you can. It’s not a blanket solution. And that’s why this wasn’t a there was no way. We’re gonna finish all that we could get to in an hour. Again read the HUD guidelines. Make sure your policies in place and and kind of look at all of that. We have left our information here. You have questions for us.

01:14:56.870 –> 01:15:12.709
Jake Marcus: We are all the the at the Am Condol website, or I should say, email address then you just get our first name, Stephen Stephen, Marcus, Jake, Jake, Marcus, and our special guest, Alan Shapiro

01:15:12.710 –> 01:15:13.870
Jake Marcus: and

01:15:13.870 –> 01:15:39.070
Jake Marcus: special guest as well, who didn’t really talk much today. Digby was a little whiny at point. Yeah, exactly. And they say, Thank you. They’re very proud guests today, and glad that you came along. And yes, the the best comment I think we got today, or best question comment. What have you is? Digby is quite a good dog. So what do you think of that, buddy?

01:15:40.370 –> 01:15:44.579
Stephen Marcus: But we have them on Prozac.

01:15:45.160 –> 01:16:01.440
Jake Marcus: So so so, Jake, you’re gonna be sending people the Powerpoint and the head guidelines, and then next week we’ll send answers to all the questions that rest correct, and we’ll send them to everybody who registered, not just those who attended.

01:16:01.450 –> 01:16:26.520
Stephen Marcus: And the I know a lot of you have have dropped off you know how to reach us other than I’m skeptical of Digby’s email address. But you know how to reach the rest of us. And if you have follow up questions

01:16:26.540 –> 01:16:47.050
Jake Marcus: perfect right at the end.

01:16:49.170 –> 01:16:51.650
Jake Marcus: Steven, yeah, quiet.

01:16:52.530 –> 01:16:58.490
Jake Marcus: We’re still the end. Yeah, Jake and I have to brush.

01:16:58.600 –> 01:17:00.020
Stephen Marcus: Yeah.

01:17:00.370 –> 01:17:06.320
Stephen Marcus: yeah, we still have some attendees. As well.

01:17:07.370 –> 01:17:15.849
Jake Marcus: Any questions that are popping up here that we don’t get to well again. That will be in the last afterwards to follow up.

01:17:15.890 –> 01:17:17.579
Jake Marcus: You will not be ignored.

01:17:19.180 –> 01:17:21.350
Stephen Marcus: Thank you, Allen. You did

01:17:21.920 –> 01:17:26.930
Jake Marcus: the the 2 and a half beyond. Wonderful, the 2 and a half minutes you let me speak.

01:17:26.980 –> 01:17:36.199
Stephen Marcus: Oh, good thing! I love you, Steven.

01:17:36.280 –> 01:17:42.450
Stephen Marcus: Okay, see you at lunch. Bye, bye, now.


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